Iq balz,
“I understand where you are coming from. Since we are
discussing religion let's therefore stick to that.”
Have you given up on the 9/11 conspiracy theory?
“I think that if one considers the Big Bang theory of
existence they will find that it is scientifically flawed.”
Unless one is an expert in that area of science, it is
difficult to make such a judgement. In addition, let’s keep in mind that
scientists regard the Big Bang as a theory of how the universe
came to be as it is now. It is a widely-accepted theory, but in science
acceptance of any theory is provisional. They do not accept it as
certain on faith.
“See Dr Zakir Naik's proof on this. It is mathematically
correct.”
What “proof” are you talking about?
“Then as I have stated before there must be a higher power.”
Unproven assumption. Also does not specify what is meant by
“higher power.”
“Even if Islam is false so is Big Bang theory.”
The above statement is a non-sequitur.
“Why do I keep mentioning Big Bang? Because how else could
you have got here if there is no higher power? So clearly there is a God.”
Another non-sequitur.
“The God of Christianity and Islam is one and the same.”
Your above statement is contradicted by another statement
just a few sentences later.*
“Almost 60% (the majority) of the planet's population are
either muslim or Christian. 60% cannot be wrong. Therefore my argument to you
is that there is a God.”
Appeal to popularity—another logical fallacy. Many people
also believe in Santa Claus.
*”But my point is that Christinaity is flawed, not Islam,
because God cannot be simultaneously divine and split 3 ways, by pure logic.”
See above. We have no evidence that divinity is one, two,
three, ten, or infinity. This argument is about as helpful as the argument over
how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
”Science and the Qur'an are totally compatible. The Qur'an is rich in
scientific detail.”
Give me one example from the Koran.
“It encourages man to "seek knowledge"”
Define knowledge. (It means something different in Islamic terminology).
“and gives explanations to phenomena that could not have
possibly been known in the epoch in question.”
Give me one example from the Koran.
“This is why it is far superior to the Bible.”
You have to demonstrate the case before arriving at the
conclusion.
“It can be proved that the probability of all the cases of
higher knowledge (scientific statements in Qur'an) being guessed by an
illiterate man is zero. Thus the Qur'an is the word of God, not man.”
Give me one example. (This is getting repetitive, isn’t it?)
”Now most people argue that the Qur'an is full of contradictions.”
Most people haven’t a clue of what’s in the Koran and they
do not care.
“However, even if it was, even the most ardent enemy of
Islam cannot deny (upon reading the Qur'an) that it promotes and mentions
all of the following; all of the items on the following list are morally sound
(since Islam, Muhammad (SAW) and Allah all promote the Qur'an let us analyse
this only (forget Hadith)):”
Wait a minute. You say it doesn’t matter that the things you
mention below might be contradicted in the Koran? So you are saying what you
list next (with the alleged goodies) could be contradicted, and that doesn’t bother you?
”Belief in the Torah, Bible and Qur'an & Allah's angels”
There is debate over that claim, but I will let it pass as
it is not important.
”Giving of regular charity”
Zakat is given by Muslims for Muslims. Do not help the
disbelievers (28:86).
”Protection and care of orphans”
I have no problem with that.
”Looking after family”
…if they follow Islam (9:23, 58:22); otherwise do not obey
them if they are un-Islamic (29:8, 31:14-15).
”Fasting”
Doesn’t matter according to the Koran, unless for expiation.
Not required if the person is affected by hunger, according to 5:3.
”Equality for all mankind (regardless of colour, gender, nationality)”
1. In general: Wrong. What the Koran says is this:
32:18. "Is then he who is a believer like him who is
Fasiq (disbeliever and disobedient to Allah)? Not equal are they."
98:6-7 says that disbelievers are the worst creatures and
believers are the best. In addition, 4:95 states explicitly that those who sit
at home are “not equal” to those who strive in the way of Allah.
2. Colour. Not specified in the Koran. You need hadith to
get those comments.
3. Gender. Koran says woman’s testimony is worth half a
man’s (2:282). In divorce, the woman has rights similar to a man’s, but the man’s
rights are “a degree above” the woman’s rights (2:228). A Muslim male must
inherit double what a Muslim female inherits (4:11, 4:176).
4. Nationality. What verse are you
claiming says that people of different nations are equal? Are you claiming that
a non-Islamic nation is equal to an Islamic nation?
“Enabling free will and choice of religion”
See this
“Protection of women and their modesty”
What does that mean? Which women? The slave-girls?
”Peace and kindness to all mankind”
Verse 60:4 says that it is exemplary to hate the
disbelievers forever unless they believe in Allah. Verse 8:39 says fight them
until all religion is for Allah. Verse 9:29 says fight them and subjugate them
and make them pay the jizya.
“Humility and compassion”
Humble with the believers, stern against the disbelievers
(5:54, 48:29).
”Striving in Allah's cause (JIHAD)”
Yes. (5:54)
”Respect to all mankind, in particular one's parents”
Do not obey them if they are un-Islamic (29:8,
31:14-15).
”Prohibition in interest transactions”
So what?
”Profit -sharing, not a rich-poor divide/survival of the fittest ethos”
The Koran permits slavery (2:221, 4:3, 4:36, 23:6, 24:58, 30:28, 33:50-52, 33:55,
70:30). That is not “profit-sharing” in any fair form.
”Arguments against Islam:
Violence and killing of the infidel
Spreading of Islam by the sword
Disrespect of women”
”The holy book's messages are in no way telling ppl to go out and murder
the infidel.”
In plenty of ways, see this link.
“In the context, Allah was telling muslims to fight for
their religion; to kill the enemy when they were being persecuted. You know the history of the holy prophet, he tolerated a
huge amount of abuse.”
The “history” of the prophet which Muslims use was, in its
original form, spoken, written, collected, and edited predominantly by Muslims. Anyways, no, he
didn’t tolerate the alleged abuse indefinitely. The Koran says that “Allah”
told him, “say peace…but they will come to know” (43:88-89). He gave out a lot of
abuse (if you read the Meccan verses, you will see all kinds of threats and
insults directed at the Meccans by Mohammad, who was claiming to be speaking
for Allah), and this caused tension. Eventually Mohammad got his revenge on the
Meccans (9:5; 9:12-14) including those who doubted him publicly [see these
references: (18), (19), (20)].
“Allah is saying that muslims should not be scared to fight
for their religion if under attack from the infidel. It says that we should be
willing to die if placed in circumstances like a cornered animal.”
Mainstream Islam says kill critics [(18), (19), (20)] and kill apostates, because such “attacks” threaten the Islamic religion.
“The epoch was a violent and brutal one, hence the
language.”
The epoch may have been violent, but Mohammad certainly did
not decrease the violence in pursuing his goal to make Islam conquer all
religions (9:32-33, 48:28, 61:9). And this did not stop with the death of the
prophet. The first four caliphs all waged imperialistic wars to claim land and
booty all in the name of Allah. Abu Bakr even waged war against those who would
not pay zakat (see Ibn Kathir’s tafsir of 9:123).
"The religion is
definitely not telling us to go out and murder innocent people. What religion
could tell its believers to exterminate the rest of mankind because of what
they believe?”
Islam does call for what non-Muslims consider to be murder, under certain conditons. See this link.
“ABSOLUTELY NONE!!! The holy book clearly states
"There is no compulsion in religion"”
..and the very next verse (2:257) says Allah will burn you in
hell if you don’t believe this “no compulsion” religion. See this
”I am not sure why ppl think Islam
teaches that women should be degraded and treated as filthy sex slaves.”
The Koran and Hadith say so, in
reference to non-Muslim female captives and slaves (see this and this).
The Koran says:
23:5. "And those who
guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts). 23:6. Except from their wives or
(the captives and slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are
free from blame;"
70:29. "And those who
guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts) .79:30.
Except with their wives and the (women slaves and captives) whom their right
hands possess, for (then) they are not to be blamed,"
4:24. "Also (forbidden
are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right
hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you-"
33:50. "O Prophet
(Muhammad SAW)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have
paid their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of
marriage), and those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses - whom
Allah has given to you-"
“Women can be beaten, but only if they
pass certain boundaries”
If the husband merely “fears
disobedience” from a wife (4:34).
“…and as I have previously pointed out
this is a very, very last resort. Not all men should even feel the need to go
so far. And whether a religion teaches it or not, most men may lose control
anyway as humans are weak by design (muslim or not). By no means are we
encouraged to be violent unnecessarily. And there shouldn't really be a need
for this anyway.”
Then why does Allah order it [wife-beating] in the Koran?
”Jesus nowhere stated he was the last Prophet. There is
much evidence even in the Bible to suggest that Jesus was not the last
messenger of Allah. Muhammad did claim to be the last and it is universally
recognised that there have been no instances of such "successful"
"prophets" since his time ( I refer to the spread of one religion
from scratch). Therefore it is not inconceivable that M was last prophet of
Allah.”
Who cares? Such arguments cannot be
resolved because no one has figured out a way to test whether someone really is
a prophet, and there is no scientific evidence of any prophet in all of
history, just myths and wild claims, dead bodies and empty pocket-books left by the "prophets'" corrupt pursuit of power.
”However, you think M is a hypocrite.”
I didn’t claim he was a hypocrite. He
was probably a charlatan, like all the fakes we see today who claim to be
prophets.
“My point to you is that Jesus is
painted in such a beautiful light (I do not suggest he was in any way a bad man
or bad exmaple - far from it). Why? Beacuse the Bible is unreliable - it has
been butchered and translated and re-translated on numerous occassions over
history. The Christians themselves cannot decide how many books comprise God's
message to them.”
The Koran has been butchered, mixed up,
and taken out of context. Mohammad has garbled and distorted parts of Biblical
stories, and then added his own revelations to suit his own attitudes, beliefs, and ambitions. The Koran is a cut-and-paste job.
”They want a nice happy ending in paradise because Jesus
bore all the punishment for their sins, regardless of what those sins were,
theirs is allegedly a religion of peace and evrything is hunky-dory and their
world is not a bad place. You know very well taht Christianity is very
convenient and their holy book reflects this ideal. The Qur'an however has
remained far more intact and is still printed in the original Arabic
transcript. Now you tell me which book you would be inclined to believe?”
Neither. I’ve read them both, and most
of their claims are not credible and not supported by evidence. As for ethics,
there are some good points but there are too many major flaws, see this and this.
”Muslims have to work far harder for paradise, through
sacrifice and a way of life - is this absurd to you? Doesn't a hard worker
deserve all the more reward than a lazy person doing the bare mimimum?”
Hard work is important, yes, but people have to do that anyway just to be good and productive citizens. Working for an imaginary Paradise of some myth does not make sense.
“This is why God has given us free
will, "There is no compulsion in religion" and to paraphrase the
Qur'an "If Allah willed all men would go to paradise". Allah has
given us a test over which he has no control (we shape our own destiny through
our choices).But he has given us an incentive, forms of control, ability to
preserve the religion through killing the infidel in times of oppression
(all of which are misread by apostates).”
That is not the meaning of the
English word oppression, but is most accurately presented as the Arabic fitnah.
"Fitnah: Polytheism and to disbelieve after one
has believed in Allah, or a trial or a calamity, affliction or to set up rivals
in worship with Allah, etc." (21)
"Trial, testing. A term referring to antagonism
toward individual Muslims at Islam's beginning. Now it is used to refer to
threats to the health of the state." (22)
It can refer to civil strife, the presence of
disbelievers, disbelief, or the drawing of Muslims away from Islam and
into disbelief. (23)
"Fitnah has been used in the Quran in two meanings.
It refers, firstly, to persecution, to a situation in which the believers are harassed
and intimidated because of their religious convictions. Secondly, it refers
to the state of affairs wherein the object of obedience is other than the
One True God." (2)
“The biggest incentive to cure our
inherent weakness I described earlier, is the brutal punishment described as
Jahannum. What an incentive Islam gives us to avoid such an abode? QUR'AN IS
THUS OUR GUIDANCE FROM GOD.”
I think you have misunderstood the word incentive. Hell is a deterrent, not an incentive. Paradise is supposed to be the incentive.
4:56.
“Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses,
lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) We shall burn them in Fire. As often as
their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they
may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, AllWise.”
21:98. “Surely you and what you
worship besides Allah are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.”
Note: Disbelievers who do good works do
so in vain, because they are going to hell anyway (5:5, 18:104-106, also 18:30,
33:19, 47:1-4, 47:32). Their works are as ashes blown away by the wind; they
have no control over what they have earned (14:18).
The punishment is also in this world
for the disbelievers (3:56, 13:33-34, 11:20, 2:251).
And see this:
9:29. "Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last
Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His
Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e.
Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until
they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves
subdued."
”This is why the Qur'an mentions and describes violence
in vivid detail. It is to lead us to the right path. Of course if one takes
phrases out of context as you ahve repeatedly done, then Islam and M's message
seem flawed.”
See my general rebuttal to the context
argument, in preparation, here.
“But look at them in the histoircal
context and the immoral world of today. The Qur'an, you must agree to some
extent, would cure many of societies ills. The Bible and Torah did not remedy
such issues so comprehensively. The only problem for Islam therefore, is the
ppl who do not act to it's instructions (bringing us back full circle to
perfect system, flawed practitioners).”
We will not remedy any of the problems
until people put those archaic books aside. See this and this.
”Quote from apostate: "Islam was a "religion"
designed by Muhammad to acquire what he craved; this being money, women, status
and power. He claimed to be a prophet, yet provided no proof, bastardized
jewish/christian scriptures and claimed it as the Quran."”
”1) Muhammad (SAW) was a humble man, he did not accumulate
wealth and left the world with little by way of property or wealth.”
Mohammad and his companions accumulated
the spoils of war (8:1-2) including land, weapons, wealth, slaves, and women
and children of the enemy. He was not humble at all. He was so arrogant and
egotistical that he ordered the killing of people who criticized him or mocked
him [(18), (19), (20)].
”2) Promiscuity is banned in Islam.
Sex is only allowed in wwdlock.”
See above. Islam permits the Muslim man
to have sex with his “right hand possessions” (slaves and war captives) in addition to his wives. Sex
with slave-girls is “out of wedlock” because a Muslim man cannot marry his
slave-girl unless she is manumitted first.
“We are told in the Qur'an to be
modest, to not oggle women etc. hence the viel to protect females from perverts
(they were rife in that epoch, hence the advent of Islam to counter the
anti-social riff-raff.”
1. If men are told not to ogle women,
then why is the veil needed? In other words, if men are taught to behave
appropriately and with self-discipline and respect for women, then no veil
should be necessary.
2. Many Muslim men are known to ogle
and harass women in Europe, Australia, and elsewhere if
those women are not wearing the veil. They also rape non-Muslim women at a
disproportionately high rate in Europe (see my article,
which cites Fjordman’s extensive work).
“By guarding against wanton sex, out
reward in paradise is the most beautiful virgin wife, untouched by any man or
Jinn. Fair enough?”
This is absurd. You are saying limit
sex now so that you can have sex all the time in imaginary Paradise. That is
pure fantasy.
”3)Status comes from money - see 1).”
We know how Mohammad obtained his
wealth—a get-rich-quick plunder scheme.
Mohammad said “Booty has been made legal for me” and “the earth belongs to the
Apostle.”
”4)Power was not relevant - the Prophet's task was to
spread the message which he did.”
Mohammad didn't acquire many followers just from preachingm, so he had to get help from others in Medina. This is
when he got the orders to fight. Islam would have died out if Mohammad had not
ordered fighting in the cause of Allah. That was financed initially by raiding
caravans, and later by conquering neighboring communities and seizing their assets.
“At one time Islam ruled across the
World. Ppl say spread by the sword, but you name me one single muslim Army
which went to Indonesia (largest mulsim population) to spread the word?”
There are bands of jihadists running
around in Indonesia today wreaking havoc, slaughtering Christians, beheading
school-girls, etc. People in Indonesia who are born into Islam are legally
prevented from switching out of Islam. There is no such thing as freedom of
religion in Indonesia. It is an Islamic state and it is getting worse.
“Then compare this to the Crusaders for
example. If Islam ruled why weren't all infidels killed - this was an option.
It was not necessary. islam does not teach this.”
Islam demands that Muslims conquer all
religions, the whole world, all of humankind, through force if the call to
convert to Islam is refused (see this).
Many of the Christians and Jews in Europe (e.g., in Spain and the Balkans) were
killed. In the Balkans, Islamists are still fighting the Christians today. The
Islamic Turks carried out a genocide against the Armenians. Muslim pirates
raided the European shores to capture people and put them into slavery. The
only thing that stopped Muslim imperialists from taking all of Europe
completely is that they were stopped militarily.
”5) Muhammad (SAW) was not a paedophile.This is not
consistent with the Qur'an's message and teachings. It does not say anywhere
that man must sleep with child. Do you not think that when the Hadith were
compiled it would have been omitted if the scholars thought it would cause
controversy? It needn't have been. The "hadith" in question is flawed
and has been disregarded. It is not seen as a threat.”
Nonsense. The many ahadith concerning
Aisha’s age (6-7 years of age at marriage, 9 years of age when Mohammad “consummated”
the marriage) are not considered weak. This ruling became enshrined in Islamic
law, and has only been challenged recently due to concerns from non-Muslim
countries and organizations. In any case, that’s irrelevant, because the Koran
assumes in its divorce rulings that Muslim men may marry girls who are too
young to menstruate (65:4).
”6) Different Prophets had different purposes . Jesus
performed miracles, Solomon commanded Jinns. M was the last prophet. People
wanted him to perform miracles but he did not need to . His task was to perfect
the religion and its message. Allah woshed people to make their own minds up
and to believe in the unseen through the signs all around us alluded to in the
Qur'an. This is free will man has been given. To mkae our own choices and read
these signs. Allah stated in the Qur'an that if he willed everyone would go to
paradise. The point is that this life is a test, like an exam to pass or fail.
Failure means the hell-fire which allah has kindly described in brutal detail,
for us to ensure we avoid it (by recognising the signs).”
Your idea of “free will” is “believe
it or else!”
”7)Muhammad (SAW) certainly did not bastardise
anything!!!!!
We believe in the Torah and Bible, ofwhich the Qur'an is
the 3rd and comprehensive instalment. Like all sequels it builds on its
predecessors and clarifies ambiguities. Thus the Qur'an is the final and
complete word of God. We need nothing else.”
You need scholars to tell you what the
Koran says. The Koran itself is too ambiguous. You need the Hadith and Sira and
experts to tell you what it means.
But no one needs the Koran. The Koran
is useless; worse than that it, is a dangerous piece of software. It is
badly–worded and disordered. It is repetitious. It is too vague, too destructive,
and intolerant.
Look at how well so many societies
prosper in peace and harmony without any Koran. Now look at the societies where
the Koran is supreme. No societies are more Islamic than Saudi Arabia, which
actually enforces much of the Koran and Sunnah. Most of the Islamic countries
are in turmoil, with religious intolerance, jihad fighting, and killing in most
of them including so-called moderate Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, and Jordan.
Where Muslims are a large minority in non-Muslim countries, significant
elements are creating major problems, overloading the work of law-enforcement
with many terror cells. Muslim organizations in the west tend to be pro-Sharia,
and they have been pushing hard for sharia in some jurisdictions in U.K.,
Canada, and elsewhere. Because some Muslims threaten violence against critics,
it is not possible to have a safe discussion about Islam in public where one’s
identity is revealed. That applies now almost anywhere in the world.
”All moral messages mate.Contradictions are found where prople butcher the
Qur'an and quote blindly out of context.”
I don’t find it moral. Wife beating, burning people in
hell just because they have a different belief or no belief in some imaginary Allah, fighting people
over religion…doesn’t sound moral to me.
Tiermo, you denied or tried to obscure your approval of the hell-fire penalty for disbelief, but there above you said, in regards to iq balz's post, which approves the hell-fire penalty:
"That my friend was a great post and response. I
do hope the people on this websitoe debate it fairly and not attack you
personaly."
Tiermo
Don't worry Tiermo. I don't literally expect you
to clarify. This is purely for demonstration purposes
-Arch