Islam Watch

iq balz, you state:

"You want us to place our trust in the UN, the same body that was powerless to stop America waging an illegal war against Iraq?"

That's not what I said. What I said was that U.N. Universal Declaration (a document) gives a rough idea of what my values are, esp. re freedom of expression and freedom of conscience. Islam sharply disagrees on those points.

As for what the U.N. does, or does not, has nothing to do with my point.

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-Arch

Arch,

Just out of interest what do you make of this:

Simple, Irrefutable, Physical, Tangible Miracle:

The Word “God” in the Quran

What More Do The Disbelievers Want?

1. God informs us in 74:25-30 that the authenticity of the Quran will be proven by the number ....... 19.
   
2. God describes as "One of the greatest miracles" (74:35) this code, based on the number ................ 19.
   
3. The word "God" (Allah) occurs in the Quran 2698 times, and this number equals ...................... 19x142.
   
4. The sum of the verse numbers wherever the word "God" is found comes to 118123, or ............. 19x6217.
   
5. The sum of all the occurrences of the word "God" in all the verses
   whose numbers are multiples of 19 (i.e., verses 19,38,57,76, etc.) is 133, or..................................... 19x7.
   
6. The sum of all the occurrences of the word "God" in all the verses
   whose numbers are NOT multiples of 19 comes to 117990, or...................................................... 19x6210.
   
7. The suras whose number of verses is divisible by 19 are Suras 47, 82, 87, & 96.
   The word "God" occurs in these suras 27, 1, 1, & 1 times, respectively. By adding
   these sura numbers, plus the occurrences of the word "God," the total is 342, or ........................ 19x18.
   
8. From the first set of Quranic Initials (A.L.M. of Sura 2) to the last Quranic Initial
   (N. of Sura 68), the number of occurrences of the word "God" is 2641 times, or ......................... 19x139
   
9. Outside the initialed section of the Quran (Sura 1 on one side, and Suras 69-114
   on the other side), the word "God" occurs 57 times, or...................................................................... 19x3.
   
10. By adding the numbers of suras and verses where these 57 occurrences of the word
    "God" are found (Item 9 above), the total comes to 2432, or........................................................... 19x128
    
11. 11. The Quran's message is that "God is One." The word "One" (Wâhed) occurs in the
    Quran 25 times, 6 of them do not refer to God, and the ones referring to God are precisely........ 19.
    
    Does Sura 9 Consist of 127 verses, or 129 verses? Here are more proofs
    
12. Take all the suras whose number of verses end with the digit “7”. These are suras
    1, 9*, 25, 26, 45, 86, & 107. Their number of verses are 7, 127 *, 77, 227, 37, 17, & 107,
    respectively. The total occurrence of the word "God" In these sums is 209, or .……………...... 19x11
    
13. Take all the suras whose number of verses end with the digit "9." These are sura 10, 15, 29,
    43, 44, 48, 52, 57, 81, 82, 87, 96, & 104. They consist of 109, 99, 69, 89, 59, 29, 49, 29,
    29, 19, 19, 19, & 9 verses, respectively. The total occurrence of the word "God" in these
    suras is 190, or............................................................................................................................................ 19x10
    
14. The number of occurrences of the word "God" from the beginning of the Quran
    to the end of Sura 9 (9:127) is 1273, or.................................................................................................... 19x67.
    
15. The sura number (9), plus its verses (127), plus the word "God" in Sura 9 (168), gives 304, or... 19x16.
    
16. The word "God" occurs in 85 suras; the sum of every sura number, plus the number of the
    last verse where the word "God" occurs, gives a total that equals 3910 + 5191 = 9101, or .......... 19x479.
    
17. Take the 85 sums where the word "God" occurs. Add the number of every sura, plus the
    number of verses from the first to the last verse where the word "God" occurs, and
    you get 3910 + 4260 = 8170, or .............................................................................................................. 19x430.

iq balz,

I recommend that you look into what the critics have to say about this analysis. I will just give you my own direct responses based on my own initial impressions, without looking at what any other critic has said about it:

I will assume for the sake of my comment that these counts (number of verses, etc.) have been verified. Keep in mind if we were to do a serious study of this we would have to verify all of the above counts.

We would also have to solve many methodological issues, such as starting with some idea of what constitutes a "verse." For example, where does a verse begin or end? Are the statements at the start of all the Suras (except for 9) considered "verses"? The above results which you cite will all change radically depending on how we define such measurement and conceptual issues.

Also assumed is that the Koran is complete and nothing of "Allah's" words have been added or removed. (a) But Aisha said that the verses of stoning and *** feeding were supposed to be in the Koran, but are missing. (b) Abdullah bin Sa'd claimed that Mohammad allowed him to alter words of the Koran. (c) There is a dispute over whether the last two verses of Sura 9 should really belong in the Koran.

So keep in mind that any changes in these assumptions or methodological decisions could send your above claims fluttering to the ground like a house of cards.

1. It appears to me that all of these "instances" of 19 are highly ad hoc, post hoc, contrived, arbitrary, and based on biased sampling. Why doesn't the Koran give instructions on where and how to find the number 19? The person(s) who came up with these is/are simply inventing ways to derive the number 19. We could pick the number 4, etc., as the magic number and come up with even more such "instances" in the Koran. We could also pick another, longer book, and make up even more ways in which we could derive the number 19. Such are the games that can be played with mathematics unconstrained, or in superstitious pursuits such as numerology.


2. For sake of argument, let's assume (just for the moment, for my point 2) that all of the above calculations are correct, and that the number 19 comes up more often than would be expected by chance. So what? What will knowing that help us accomplish? Will knowing that information about "19" make people more truthful, moral, and wise? Or is it just more useless trivia?

And what does it really "prove"--that Allah exists or that the Koran is a divine book? A devil's advocate could ask: Does the 19 phenomenon actually prove that the Koran is a fake and that there is no Allah, or that Allah is false, etc.? The "Miraculous 19" Muslims cannot prove that the devil's advocate is wrong. I say this simply to demonstrate that there must be some meaningful constraints on our interpretations of evidence.

Next, imagine if I wrote a book and I carefully designed it so that there would be all kinds of mathematical relationships with the number 19. And then I included a verse that said: "This book is divine because of XYZ pertaining to the number 19." Why would anyone else take me seriously? It would be merely evidence of human tampering and trickery, not anything divine.

3. Let's suppose Allah really exists and the Koran is divine. Let's also suppose all your claims about this 19 business are correct. It is Allah's message to mankind, through Mohammad. Now what?

Why would he have people waste valuable time on this 19 business?

Why does Allah have time to talk about 19, but he does not give a verse ending the institution of slavery (and please note the word institution)?

Why does he not give a verse that says Muslims must work toward the goal of living in peace as equals with people of other religions? [Instead, Allah's final policy is that Muslims must conquer people of all other religions (9:33, 61:9, 48:28), and humiliate and subdue the non-Muslims (9:29)].

Why does he not have time to give a verse forbidding rape?

Why would he produce such ambiguous messages, interpreted one way by some people, interpreted another way by others?


Conclusions: The 19 business is not proof of anything except that humans can find whatever arbitrary examples of what they want to find when they are involved in superstitious thinking. We could do the same with any number in any book of sufficient length. Even if the 19 business were true, it would be trivial, irrelevant, and useless morally or practically.

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-Arch

Conclusions: The 19 business is not proof of anything except that humans can find whatever arbitrary examples of what they want to find when they are involved in superstitious thinking. We could do the same with any number in any book of sufficient length. Even if the 19 business were true, it would be trivial, irrelevant, and useless morally or practically.

I guess when you're THAT desperate to have proof you'll find it any and everywhere.

So.......Does anyone really believe in god? Seriously. It's as sad as an adult believing in Santa.

We have no god but fortunately we do have science. Any question that can't currently be answered by science will be answered by logical advances in science eventually.

 

Faith has not test but we know it exists, Love has not test but it is part of us (well most of us) so dont go yacking about science Abu Hamar, you are not making sense. God does exist according to his son Jesus, what more proof do you need? Again if you want to prove it once and for all, you know what you need to do.

Well said Tiermo.

Abu Lahab, you have clearly not read my previous posts and sound completely deluded.

As for Arch, I was not suggesting that the 19 article was proof of anything, I just wondered what you thought and would tend to agree with most of your points.

That said, this does not detract from all my rebuttals of your previous points. As for the UN the entire body is a complete joke.

iq balz, What rebuttals?

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-Arch

TiermoT:

Faith has not test but we know it exists, Love has not test but it is part of us (well most of us) so dont go yacking about science Abu Hamar, you are not making sense. God does exist according to his son Jesus, what more proof do you need? Again if you want to prove it once and for all, you know what you need to do.

A book about god has a character 'Jesus' who says god exists....pretty conclusive......if you're gullible.

iq balz,

You have done a good job of exposing your fanatical views in our forum. When it comes to Islam, you abandon all common sense, all morality. You favour divine command theory over morality proper. I recommend that you read a book on reasoning, and another on ethics.

1. You state:

"Fighting in the name of one’s religion  -I am doing this right now."

That's how you responded to my citation of Koran 5:54. I do believe you that you think you are fighting in the name of your religion. Struggling with the tongue (speech, expression) is one of the forms of jihad in Islam.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 14, Number 2498:
"Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Use your property, your persons and your tongues in striving against the polytheists."

“Persist in jihad in the cause of Allah, with your money, your souls, and your tongue.” –Ali
http://www.shia.org/sayings.html

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit".

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

In the jihad fighting by tongue, deceit is permissible in Islam if the goal is permissible.

2. Then you ask:

"What has slave girls got to do with it and where is the evidence to prove they are mistreated anyway?"

Right here (besides all those Quran quotes I already gave you and which you refused to read)


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 362:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a slave-girl commits illegal sexual intercourse and it is proved beyond doubt, then her owner should lash her and should not blame her after the legal punishment. And then if she repeats the illegal sexual intercourse he should lash her again and should not blame her after the legal punishment, and if she commits it a third time, then he should sell her even for a hair rope."


Don't give me any nonsense about "weak hadith." That one is considered mutawatir.



3. Next you state:

"But a woman cannot be raped or married against her will – you know very well that Islam prohibits both those things."

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm talking about non-Muslim women captives and slaves being raped by the Muslim male captor/owner. You've done no research. You do not even know what is in your own religious texts, and yet you claim to believe in this religion.


Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3371 (3371-3388):
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): O Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.


Next, you will try to tell me that even Bernard Lewis is wrong too:
Bernard Lewis. Race and Slavery in the Middle East. Oxford Univ Press 1994.
Chpt. 1 Slavery. Lewis writes: “A Muslim slaveowner was entitled by law to the sexual enjoyment of his slave women. While free women might own male slaves, they had of course no equivalent right.”

And why do I bother quoting all of this? It tells us something about many Muslim men's attitudes abiout non-Muslim women, whom you called "bimbos" if they wore a short skirt. This disrespect for non-Muslim women is manifested today in many forms, ranging from your bigoted comments about non-Muslim women being "bimbos," to Qaradawi's comments that women who do not conform to Islamic dress code are partly to blame for being raped, to the rapes happening in Europe today, which are mostly committed by Muslim males, even though Muslim males are a small percentage of the population.

4. You state, referring to your opinion on your own post:

"He’s correct - it was a great post. I have, even ever so briefly, massacred your rebuttal. Bear in mind this is an unbelievably brief version of my original response and there are other killer points which have been lost."

Here you are going against your Koran: "...Allah loveth not such as are proud and boastful." (4:36).

As I was saying, it is for readers, not you, to make such a judgement on your posts.

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-Arch

Arch,

I answer you points in turn:

1. You have waffled on confirming one of my forms of Jihad. Then you claim that the ends justifies the means if I lie to get my point across. This claim you make is completely unsupported by the quotes you have used; in attempting to rebut me, you have succeeded in making yourself look stupid.

2. My argument is not that the hadith is weak. It is to say that this treatment of a slave is justified.It is like one's wife cheating. Islam deems that a woman should be lashed. Such a ruling is prescribed for both sexes. It is a form of social control, akin to capital punishment. A very effective form of deterrent, I would stress, from which the anti-social elements in the whole world would be well-disciplined if the ruling was universal. The USA still incorporates capital punishment so perhaps my Islam is not so far removed from your culture as you seem to suggest.

If you got raped for example (God forbid this happens I add), I am sure your family would be very supportive of the death penalty for the rapist.

You stated "besides all those Quran quotes I already gave you and which you refused to read". I state that I have read and shown (for those quotes of yours I have bothered to rebut), that you quote out of context and misinterpret most of the sources you state in your arguments. See point 1. for a clear example of this.

3. I make it clear that I do not think short-skirted wearers are bimbos. It was a figure of speech and I clearly explained this in a previous post.

You claim:
"You do not even know what is in your own religious texts, and yet you claim to believe in this religion."

I claim I paraphrase Qur'anic quotes in common sense language to counter most of your arguments and have done so abundantly on this thread.

As for slaves, I suggest the following excellent article written by sisters using Qur'anic quotes, which explain the points I want to make very concisely
http://www.submission.org/women/care.html

This fully supports my claim that "a woman cannot be raped or married against her will – you know very well that Islam prohibits both those things."

4. You are absolutely correct and I must say I couldn't resist the wind-up when I came to the end of that particular post. Sorry if I upset you. I was in a playful mood.

I hope this clarifies my points. By the way Arch, pls confirm you are female which I have been assuming (perhaps incorrectly) all this time.

iq_balz:

By the way Arch, pls confirm you are female which I have been assuming (perhaps incorrectly) all this time.

What difference would that make? Are you scared of women like most muslim men seem to be?

I seem to get the feeling Arch is female, and I asked because of my point 3.

It makes no difference what the sex is though generally I have to say that women on these threads seem to make more sense than imbeciles like you who just make silly comments to wind people up.

iq balz,

re deceit. As I said, deceit is permissible according to Islamic law, if the goal is permissible. Either you don't know your own texts, or you don't practice them, or you obscure/deny them, or you are lying to us. This is simply another one of the policies in islam which most Muslims refuse to acknowledge and solve.

No, I'm not female. But I am concerned about the safety and rights of both Muslim and non-Muslim women and girls, which perhaps led you to your erroneous conclusion. Either that, or you are using a common tactic that many Muslim interlocutors use when dealing with opponents (even opponents with male names like Archimedez): Call them female to cause more distraction, to relieve the pressure from having to deal with the criminal, immoral, and irrational and unscientific aspects of Islam.

Yes, you did refer to women who wear short skirts as bimbos. We have that on record.

Re your comments about rape are irrelevant because Islam permits the rape of non-Muslim female captives and slaves. For that matter, Islam permits husbands to "enjoy" their wives "by force."

Your comments about approving the lashing of female slaves simply gives the readers an idea of the kinds of problems that exist in Islam. Islam clearly has criminal elements that violate human rights.

So your approach is either to deny that a problem exists, or to say that the problem is no problem at all in your opinion.

P.S. I am just posting this here (in red) to ensure that it stays on record:

iq balz stated, in reference to the hadith calling for whipping of female slaves:
"2. My argument is not that the hadith is weak. It is to say that this treatment of a slave is justified.It is like one's wife cheating. Islam deems that a woman should be lashed. Such a ruling is prescribed for both sexes. It is a form of social control, akin to capital punishment. A very effective form of deterrent, I would stress, from which the anti-social elements in the whole world would be well-disciplined if the ruling was universal. The USA still incorporates capital punishment so perhaps my Islam is not so far removed from your culture as you seem to suggest."

Arch Note: The U.S. does not carry out capital punishment for adultery. In fact, there is no criminal punishment for adultery. Moreover, in the example above, we are dealing with a slave. In the west, slavery, and lashing as corporal punishment, are both illegal. When adultery occurs, it is considered immoral and those who get caught must face the judgement of their spouse, family, friends, etc., but they are not criminally prosecuted. In the west, adultery occurs when there is cheating (sex with another partner outside the marriage) in violation of the marriage agreement. In the west, marriage is understood to be entered into by two free consenting adults. In Islam, the Muslim man is permitted to have slaves in addition to his wives, and moreover he is allowed to have sex with the slaves. (1) That is outside the marriage. (2) A slave under Islam has not freely consented to such a relationship, according to modern western conception of free consent. Therefore if a female slave has sex with someone other than her master, Islam considers that illegal, worthy of the lashes, even though she has not violated any agreement to which she had freely consented. (She's a slave, remember?). Ergo, your adultery analogy is nonsense.

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-Arch

Arch,

Your capacity to miss the point completely is astounding. You smack of someone who thinks they own this website, you've been around for years and can't take it when someone comes on to your patch and makes you look completely foolish.

Again I repeat, you made a complete hash of your argument on deceit.You failed to come up with a valid quote that proves this.

Arch here: I cited a mutawatir hadith "War is deceit" and you said you are waging jihad right now on this site, and that is jihad of the tongue or pen. Are you now backing off your claim that you are involved in jihad at this moment? The permissibility of deception is also stated in the Reliance of the Traveller. As I said, it is permissible if the goal is permissible. Of course, if you do not believe those sources, that's fine with me. I am just reporting to you about what mainstream Islam accepts. So again, you will have to argue with them, not me.

You make out like I am some fanatic - no, I am a realist. Your suggestion that I "Call them female to cause more distraction, to relieve the pressure from having to deal with the criminal, immoral, and irrational and unscientific aspects of Islam." is absolute absurdity. I can refute most of your points in a couple of common-sense sentences. You are the one who is trying to butcher the religion and cannot even find a consistent and contextual quote to back up your arguments. See my argument to point 1. in my previous post.

You always quote out of context and add non-muslim sources/opinions to embellish on something which quite simply doesn't even exist. For example, your article (on Jihad and killing) in which you managed to butcher a simple, self-explanatory verse from the Qur'an and corrupted it to suggest what you wanted it to say. You are full of hot air, making mountains out of molehills, for want of a better argument.

I ask you, who will a rapist choose? A veiled woman or a woman in a skirt which is more a belt than a skirt? You do the Maths.

In answer to your points on the treatment of slaves and women, lashing and what have you, I attach the extract (fully supported by Qur'anic quotes) which spells out the whole slavery thing for other readers and explains the true rights of slaves, which you conveniently glossed over as usual:

One of the most abused expression in the Quran is the statement about "Ma Malakat Aymanukum", which translates word for word as "What your right hand possess". Many traditional Muslims have abused this statement. They have followed corrupted scholars who have innovated and fabricated laws that have no basis in the true Islam (Submission) and contradict the laws of God in the Quran.

When we study the verses that talk about "Ma Malakat Aymanukum", or (MMA) for short, in the Quran, we will understand this sensitive issue.

Frequently, we get questions from the visitors of our web site at submission.org about MMA and whether it is allowed to have sexual relationship with them or not. Other visitors talk about sexual relationship with MMA as a matter of their right. This article will address this question from the Quran and define what is meant by MMA and the nature of relationship between these MMA and those who are responsible for them.

MMA covers five categories of people. They can be men, women, boys or girls. The expression of MMA has different meaning in different verses although all of them fall under the same classification - a group of people who depend on you, almost totally, for their living requirements, security and well being. Quran teaches beyond doubt that MMA are part of our families who should be treated with respect and given their rights as human beings. Only in two categories out of the five MMA, is sexual relationship allowed and only after these MMA are part of a marriage (as a spouse). Under no circumstances does God allow in the Quran any man (or a woman), to have sexual relationship with their MMA unless the man and the woman become a husband and wife. Even in case of war, all the captured women (and men), fall under the protected MMA and cannot be considered sex objects. They should be treated with respect and asked for marriage, and given their due dowries. Rape of women during wartime is a crime as it is during peacetime. Righteousness is defined by an established moral value, that is best judged by the words of God in the Quran, and not by war or peace.

The following is a description of these categories of MMA in the Quran, the verses that mention them and the expected relationship:

(1) Ma Malakat Aymanukum = what you already have. The first category of MMA is the category of women who were already married to their husbands even if their marriages do not follow the Quranic rules because their marriage occurred before the revelation of the Quran or before their conversion to Islam. This can be understood from the wording of 4:3.

In this case, if you already have a wife or wives, even from a category that became prohibited after the revelation of the Quran, you can keep them. You do not have to divorce them as God would not break an established marriage. This category of MMA is considered permitted for these particular people and falls under what you already have. Since they are actually a married couple a sexual relationship is permitted.

[4:3] If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers - you may marry two, three, or four. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have (Ma Malakat Aymanukum). Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship.

[33:50] O prophet, we made lawful for you your wives to whom you have paid their due dowry, or what you already have (Ma Malakat Yameenek) , as granted to you by GOD. Also lawful for you in marriage are the daughters of your father's brothers, the daughters of your father's sisters, the daughters of your mother's brothers, the daughters of your mother's sisters, who have emigrated with you. Also, if a believing woman gave herself to the prophet - by forfeiting the dowry - the prophet may marry her without a dowry, if he so wishes. However, her forfeiting of the dowry applies only to the prophet, and not to the other believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses or what they already have (Ma Malakat Aymanuhum). This is to spare you any embarrassment. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[33:52] Beyond the categories described to you, you are enjoined from marrying any other women, nor can you substitute a new wife (from the prohibited categories), no matter how much you admire their beauty. You must be content with those already made lawful to you (Ma Malakat Yameenek). GOD is watchful over all things.

(2) Ma Malakat Aymanukum = What is rightfully yours.

This is the second category of the MMA, what is rightfully yours. In this category sexual relationship is allowed. We, however, have to be very careful in understanding God's law in the Quran. God deliberately used the word OR when permitting the sexual relationships between men and their MMA. It is EITHER their spouses OR MMA. God did not choose AND in these particular verses, (their spouses and MMA.) God's choice of His words is deliberate and He constructs His laws very clearly to leave NO doubt in the mind of His true worshippers. In this category of what is rightfully theirs, are situations where a man and a woman married each other without registering their marriage with the appropriate authorities. Common law marriage in USA is one of these cases where both the man and the woman agrees to live together as a husband and a wife in front of God but do not register their marriage. It can also include cases described in the first category where MMA becomes rightfully theirs by the permission given to them by God.

Short-term agreement between a man and a woman to have sex for any period of time is not included in this category. This short-term agreement is prostitution and is forbidden by God's law in the Quran. In this short term agreement the man deprive the woman from her legal rights that a wife has, and free himself from having any obligation of a husband towards his divorced wife. The example of this short-term agreement to have sex between a man and a woman is what many scholars call Muta marriage. They make it legal, when it is against all the laws of marriage and establishing a family in the Quran.

[70:30] (They have relations) only with their spouses, or what is legally theirs - (Ma Malakat Aymanuhum)

[23:6] Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs (Ma Malakat Aymanhum), do they have sexual relations; they are not to be blamed.

(3) Ma Malakat Aymanukum = slaves, if any. Since slaves are dependent totally on their owner, they are considered MMA. Although the Quran advocates the freeing of the slaves in every possible occasion, the law is placed in the Quran to protect those who were slaves at the time of the revelation of the Quran and for those who may become slaves in any future time. Some of the visitors to our web site talk about their servants as if they were their slaves since they totally dependent on them. Slaves and servants are protected and not considered as sexual partners under any circumstance outside a lawful marriage.

[4:25] Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women (Ma Malakat Aymanukum). GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

In this verse, God clarifies the status of MMA as being honorable women who may marry believing men after getting permission from their guardians. If these slave women are the sexual partners of their guardians, how can God offer them to the believing men? God asks them to MAINTAIN their moral behavior, by not committing adultery or having secret lovers. This verse clearly shows those slave women (MMA,) are not the sexual partners of their guardian.

[24:33] Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.

Two important teachings are found in this verse - to free the slaves (servants) to get married and not to force the girls to commit prostitution. In this verse MMA, servants (slaves), can be freed from their slavery to get married, and even helped with money to do so. Had they been legitimate sexual partners of the owner or the guardian, they would not be available for marriage whenever they want to, as this verse teaches. Forcing them to have sex will be prostitution or rape.

(4) Ma Malakat Aymanukum = servants. Since our servants are dependent on us in their living, we are responsible for their well being but they are not our sexual partners. See what the Quranic verses teach about this category.

[24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants (Ma Malakat Aymanuhunna) or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.

There is a great lesson in this verse. God teaches us that the believing women  may have the same category (MMA) like the men do. Notice that the verse starts by asking the believing women to maintain their chastity.

The male scholars who gave permission to any man to have sex with his (MMA), will not allow the same right for a woman who owns the same category (MMA). These scholars fabricated laws of their own that apply to the men but not to the women. Such fabricated laws have no basis in God's laws in the Quran. These laws of God apply to all genders without discrimination. God prohibited sexual relationship with MMA outside a marriage for both the men and the women alike.

[33:55] The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants (Ma Malakat Aymanuhunna). They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things.

[24:58] O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

It is clear from this verse that your MMA (servants), do not have the permission given to your spouse (sexual partner) of freely entering your sleeping quarters. Had these MMA, servants, been considered your sexual partners, such a permission would not be needed.

[4:36] You shall worship GOD alone - do not associate anything with Him. You shall regard the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, the related neighbor, the unrelated neighbor, the close associate, the traveling alien, and your servants (Ma Malakat Aymanukum). GOD does not like the arrogant show-offs.

[16:71] GOD has provided for some of you more than others. Those who are given plenty would never give their properties to their subordinates (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) to the extent of making them partners. Would they give up GOD's blessings?

[30:28] He cites for you herein an example from among yourselves: Do you ever elevate your servants or subordinates (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) to the level where they rival you, and to the point that you pay them as much allegiance as is being paid to you? We thus explain the revelations for people who understand.

(5) Ma Malakat Aymanukum = Special category of women who leave their disbelieving husbands during wartime and join the believers camp. This category is also protected in the Quran and not exempted as sex slaves. They must be treated like any free woman, asked for permission for marriage and given all the due respect and payments that apply to a legal marriage. This is clarified in 60:10.

[4:24] Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you (Ma Malakat Aymanukum). These are   GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

I see. I thought I recognized the Khalifah translation. Anyways, 9 out of 10 translations of 4:24 do not say "unless they flee their disbelieving husbands." Are we to believe, once again, that all the other translators got it wrong and that Khalifah got it right?

[60:10] O you who believe, when believing women (abandon the enemy and) ask for asylum with you, you shall test them. GOD is fully aware of their belief. Once you establish that they are believers, you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are not lawful to remain married to them, nor shall the disbelievers be allowed to marry them. Give back the dowries that the disbelievers have paid. You commit no error by marrying them, so long as you pay them their due dowries. Do not keep disbelieving wives (if they wish to join the enemy). You may ask them for the dowry you had paid, and they may ask for what they paid. This is GOD's rule; He rules among you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

God's law is clear in the Quran. We, as submitters to our Creator, have no choice but to submit to such law. Any person breaking this law is not practicing Islam (Submission) and cannot be considered to be a Muslim (Submitter). Indeed, such individuals who do not submit to God's laws are "Objectors" not "Submitters."

[24:51] The only utterance of the believers, whenever invited to GOD and His messenger to judge in their affairs, is to say, "We hear and we obey." These are the winners.

[5:7] Remember GOD's blessing upon you, and His covenant that He covenanted with you: you said, "We hear and we obey." You shall observe GOD; GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.

[2:285] The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and so did the believers. They believe in GOD, His angels, His scripture, and His messengers: "We make no distinction among any of His messengers." They say, "We hear, and we obey. Forgive us, our Lord. To You is the ultimate destiny."

I don't think I need to add any more to this as the facts agin speak for themselves and show your points up for what they really are: PURE IGNORANCE.

And you have the audacity to say "You have done a good job of exposing your fanatical views in our forum. When it comes to Islam, you abandon all common sense, all morality. You favour divine command theory over morality proper. I recommend that you read a book on reasoning, and another on ethics."

For someone so learned as you claim to be, you do a very good job of contradicting yourself my friend. I think it is you who needs to read a book on reasoning, not me.

Well, you haven't shown any contradictions on my part. Next, I didn't claim to be learned, iq balz. That is for others to judge. Anyone can read my article on Rape of non-Muslim women captives and slaves, as well as check our Resources on rape in islam, and judge for themselves. The bottom line is that none of what you've posted above states that Muslim masters cannot rape non-Muslim female captives and slaves (right hand possessions).

Abu Lahab said:

"We have no god but fortunately we do have science. Any question that can't currently be answered by science will be answered by logical advances in science eventually."

Keep telling yourself that mate and evntually you might believe it. This very comment makes a mockery of your "Science".