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Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

Last post 10-16-2006, 1:16 PM by iq_balz. 60 replies.
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  •  09-26-2006, 5:04 PM 732

    Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked

    HISTORY:


    Dear Mr. Aztek,

     

    Many thanks for your comments about my write-ups in Islam-watch site. You have also invited me to debate with you in the forum on the subject of Islam. Great, I accept your offer gladly. Please do one thing for me. Write your rebuttal to any of my essays and post it in the Islam-watch site. If you don't know how to send your rebuttal to the site please let me know. I will help you to post your write-ups in the site.

     

    To your entire blabbering you have simply made your abusive ranting to my write-ups but failed to rebut almost nothing, except your lip-service.   Please come to the point of the subject and refute me if you can.

     

    I am not going to rebut you in this but surely will do when I see your rebuttal posted in the IW site. But could not control my temptation to responding to some of your ridiculous points.

     

    You said, if I have anything that has proven scientifically the Big-bang theory??? Let me ask you the same question: Have you got any scientifically proven cause to believe all these grand mother's story of Islam?

     

    Another question I could not but ask you:  Do you think there is any nation or race in the whole world which are more honest and more generous than America or Americans?  Please give me just one good example when and where America stolen a drop of OIL without paying their hard earned dollars!!! Please justify to me why America needs to occupy another nation only to get oil. Is not the mighty US dollars good enough to get oil from anywhere on earth?

     

    You know what brother Aztek? You the Islamic terrorists actually invited America to invade your country. Remember please had there been no 9/11; there would have been no Afghan/Iraq wars today, period. 

     

    I will wait for your rebuttal next. That's all today brother Aztek.

     

    Regards,

     

    Syed K. Mirza (SKM)

     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     


     
    On 9/18/06, aztek  wrote: Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it is not foolish to question
    one's belief. In fact this enables one to confirm or or alter ones religious
    views. I don't profess to be a great muslim but even I can feel sufficiently
    strongly about the nonsense I read to write to you in person.

    As stated in the holy book, which I think deep down you believe in but are
    afraid to admit, "there is no compulsion in religion".

    What have you found that answers all your questions about existence and ones
    purpose? I would be interested to know.

    What I write in the following mirrors the type of language you like using.
    Pls pay me the courtesy of reading to the end.

    I read your articles in Islamic watch and was amused by your immature and
    completely brainless comments. It is an insult to think that someone who is
    privileged enough to have access to a resource such as the internet to air
    his views could be so utterly warped. I pity you, quite frankly. You
    obviously think you are more intelligent than you actually are.

    It is no wonder the world is so corrupt, immoral and anti-Islamic with
    idiots such as yourself alleging to inform the masses with your hyperbolic
    clap-trap. You seem to have some sort of psychological and moral issues
    which need to be urgently addressed. What exactly makes you so insecure and
    anti-Islam?

    Everything you write is laced with irony and mockery. You take everything
    out of context and quote verbatim. Have you even read the holy Qur'an or the
    Hadith in their entirety? If you had you wouldn't make such baseless and
    tacky accusations. Your article on paradise and its rewards were rich in
    sarcasm.

    Why do you find it so hard to fathom that a good man/woman who forgoes all
    worldly pleasures in order to gain access back to paradise can actually
    benefit from all those things which they sacrificed.

    WHY SHOULD A BEAUTIFUL VIRGIN WIFE BE SUCH A DISGSTING THING? sEX WAS MEANT
    FOR PLEASURE, IF DOEN BY ALLAH'S CONSENT WHY IS IT FILTHY. YOU SIGGEST
    PARADISE IS ONE BIG GANG-BANG ORGY? WHERE DOES IT STATE THAT? PLS QUOTE ME
    WORD FOR WORD.

    'This was the clear evidence of Muhammad's utter intolerance and great
    hatreds towards other religions (including Christianity and Judaism), which
    is prevailing till today in Saudi Arabia. By his cruel, sick and disgusting
    imagination-Prophet of Islam did every effort to create panic and terror
    among non-Muslims, so that out of fear they convert to Islam; or he always
    left clear instructions to his followers to convert unbelievers by the
    brutal force of Islamic jihad."

    Give me a quote which comprehensively proves the above quote from your
    article?

    I understand that you were previously muslim but were then disgusted and
    rejected the religion - fair enough but what do you actually believe? BIG
    BANG theory, hinduism, zionism? You are a pathetic example of someone who
    has been so brainwashed and deceived by idiots around him and the western
    media that you make all sorts of excuses against Islam under the pretext of
    a free democratic society!!!!

    Open your eyes for your own sake Mirza and see clearly and undeniably all
    those signs of qiyamat around you.

    A corrupt US government who seeks short term wealth by pillaging the holy
    lands for oil under the guise of WMDs. Oppression of muslims the world over.
    There is evidence that the British Attorney General in the last century
    quite clearly stated that Islamic brotherhood had to be stopped at all
    costs. You know that Islam is one nation regardless of creed, colour,
    culture,sex. Hence the British decide to divide and rule, giving muslims
    labels...Turks, Kurds, pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshi, Saudi etc. You are
    the journalist, you do the research and prove me wrong.

    Why is Islam such a threat to the West...because they know it is the truth.
    It prompts equality, kindness, brotherhood and unity all things alien to the
    capitalistic west.

    What are you scared of..I challenge you to research all the so called
    religions out there and then you yourself will see that Islam is the only
    religion without contradiction.

    There is  a reason for everything...there is no other "force" that created
    this planet other than Allah. There can only be one God, that is the very
    definition of divinity. There has to be A God (think about this), BIG BANG
    is not scientifically sound. There is no need for many dieties,because by
    above def'n, a God should be all knowing and all powerful. Christianity
    promotes 3 gods, impossible, God cannot be simultaneously divine and a man
    (Jesus). Jews refuse to look beyond their own backsides, hinduism forget
    about it you're the intelligent one (how does it make sense???)...anything
    else isn't popular enough to be a competitor to Islam. You can choose to
    believe in nothing, but then how did u get here?

    "  The Muslims will not have to be better humans than those kaffirs. All
    they have to do is utter the Kalema (incantation) by which one convert to a
    Muslim:   ""there is no God but Allah and Mohammad is his Prophet."   After
    that they have the clear license to kill as many kaffirs as they could or
    pleased, looting and burning their belongings and enslaving their women and
    children as Allah's gift of war booty.  It is also commonly believed by
    Muslims that at the time of death-if the Muslim simply can utter the above
    'Kalema' he will be forgiven for all his sins that he committed during his
    entire life.  A college friend of mine was never prayed in his entire life.
    When I asked him what will happen to him after his death, he said: "at the
    time of my death, I will simply utter the  Kalema Toiyab-and Inshallah I
    will enter the heaven." Folks, this is what Islam teaches to the 1.2 Billion
    robots (idiots).  Praise to Pagan Allah!!!  "

    Read the Qur'an mate and you will retract your above exaggerated
    statemtn.Nobody knows who will go to hell or not...Allah decides. Why is
    Allah so wrong to warn us about the perils of hell. This life
    is an exam, except Allah has been so kind as to give us the answers to avoid
    failure. If hell was nice everyone would do as they please and the world
    would be in tyranny. You probably wouldn't be alive because of your skin
    colour...What better incentive than to show the brutality of hell so ppl
    avoid it?
    After all our purpose is to get the status afforded to Adam and Eve...this
    life isn't about fun. It is a test in every sense.

    I would love to hear your response maybe even publish my email on the
    website and we can arrange a debate online. We do not need to fight,
    intelligence and the TRUTH will win the day?

    If you are so confident in your views the pls invite me to post some entries
    on your website to counter your views.

    Yours in anticipation

    May Allah forgive you dear man!

  •  09-26-2006, 5:23 PM 733 in reply to 732

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked

    You said, if I have anything that has proven scientifically the Big-bang theory??? Let me ask you the same question: Have you got any scientifically proven cause to believe all these grand mother's story of Islam?

     Mirza Big Bnag is scientifically flawed. So surely you accept their is some force that created this earth the planets, humans, animals, sea. It was not chance that brought us here. The question is what do you want to call that force. If we call it God, then the God is clearly omnipotent, so there is really only the need for ONE God.


    Now, Christianity is the World's largest religion. Islam is the second. Since Christians believe Jesus was God, then this is a contradiction. Prove to me that Jesus was God. Nowhere does it state this in the bible, which is a flwed text lost in translation. Islam succeeded CHristianity. If Christinaity was so perfect then why the existence of Islam. The Qur'an is so far scientifically advanced than any religious text (cf. creation of a human being, from a clot of blood to full formation; water cycle; sun and moon interaction; the non-mixing of brine and non-salt water). Muhammad (SAW) was illiterate- - he could not have made this up. I do not think you can challenge this argument. If you can pls explain to me wh so many prominent scientists have reverted to Islam after reading the Qur'an, if the Qur'an is so flawed as you ceaselessly repeat like a broken record.

    Another question I could not but ask you:  Do you think there is any nation or race in the whole world which are more honest and more generous than America or Americans?  Please give me just one good example when and where America stolen a drop of OIL without paying their hard earned dollars!!! Please justify to me why America needs to occupy another nation only to get oil. Is not the mighty US dollars good enough to get oil from anywhere on earth?

     Mighty America, generous? who are u trying to kid, the US has the most corrupt leadres in the World. The only reason Iraq was "invaded" was allegedly to destroy WMDs but none were found. So where are all these terrorists? Why doesn't America halt the African dictators? Where is the Oil in Africa. Do not have the audicity to preach America... it's ppl are no doubt an honest bunch, but the leaders are along with the Zionists, the most corrupt bunch. What are the improvements mqanifested in the US invasion  in Iraq or Afghanistan for that matter?Look at the facts before using the Patriotism card.


    The worst thing about it is that you say generosity? Tell me pls, where is the generosity in dismantling the entire Iraqi infrastructure then creating a debt for Iraq to pay back?

    You know what brother Aztek? You the Islamic terrorists actually invited America to invade your country. Remember please had there been no 9/11; there would have been no Afghan/Iraq wars today, period.

    Everyone with a modicum of a brain cell can see that 9-11 was a CIA fix.

    See the scientific evidence to realise that the implosion of the Twin Towers was not consistent with an aircraft flying through the  structures.


    Islam does not teach us to be terrorists. It is a misconception of an unfortunate few.

    Terrorism is wrong and cannot be condoned under Islam or any other moral teaching. Unfortunately all religions especially Christinaity (i.e. Crusades) have had morons who taint their religion.

  •  09-29-2006, 7:48 AM 767 in reply to 733

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    Part-1

    Debate with Aztek : Response from SKM

     

    Dear Aztek,

    Thanks for your rebuttal but your rebuttal was not to the point in our subject of discussion. Please try to answer/rebut to the point to a question without jargonizing your response unnecessarily. Below I am arranging once more my original questions by numbers:

     

    Q.1 : "You said, if I have anything that has proven scientifically the Big-bang theory??? Let me ask you the same question: Have you got any scientifically proven cause to believe all these grand mother's story of Islam?"

     

    Response   by Aztek: "Mirza Big Bnag is scientifically flawed. So surely you accept their is some force that created this earth the planets, humans, animals, sea. It was not chance that brought us here. The question is what do you want to call that force. If we call it God, then the God is clearly omnipotent, so there is really only the need for ONE God. Now, Christianity is the World's largest religion. Islam is the second. Since Christians believe Jesus was God, then this is a contradiction. Prove to me that Jesus was God. Nowhere does it state this in the bible, which is a flwed text lost in translation. Islam succeeded CHristianity. If Christinaity was so perfect then why the existence of Islam. The Qur'an is so far scientifically advanced than any religious text (cf. creation of a human being, from a clot of blood to full formation; water cycle; sun and moon interaction; the non-mixing of brine and non-salt water). Muhammad (SAW) was illiterate- - he could not have made this up. I do not think you can challenge this argument. If you can pls explain to me wh so many prominent scientists have reverted to Islam after reading the Qur'an, if the Qur'an is so flawed as you ceaselessly repeat "

     

    My response: Brother Aztek you did not answer my question. You are quite ignorant about Quran and islam.You should tell me as to what scientific formula you have discovered in Islam that proved that Islam is true religion. Please answer this question above. Blood clot can give rise anything but some rotten foul smelling stuff. Finding your so called science will be handled by my attached essay. Please read my essay to learn about science in

     

    Quran. Please click to: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SKM/contradictions.htm and read my essay on Quranic contradictions and errors. 

     

    In fact, Quran or any other religious book does not have any science, period. Religion and science is like oil and water—both do not mix together. If you believe religion then you can not believe science. You can not have it both ways!!!

     

    By the way, please do not bring any other religion into our discussion since we are dealing with Islam only. We are not here to compare between some rotten eggs.   To me all religions are rotten eggs articulated by some clever humans only to fool others. .

     

    Q.2   "Another question I could not but ask you:  Do you think there is any nation or race in the whole world which are more honest and more generous than America or Americans?  Please give me just one good example when and where America stolen a drop of OIL without paying their hard earned dollars!!! Please justify to me why America needs to occupy another nation only to get oil. Is not the mighty US dollars good enough to get oil from anywhere on earth?"

     

    Aztek's Response :  "Mighty America , generous? who are u trying to kid, the US has the most corrupt leadres in the World. The only reason Iraq was "invaded" was allegedly to destroy WMDs but none were found. So where are all these terrorists? Why doesn't America halt the African dictators? Where is the Oil in Africa. Do not have the audicity to preach America... it's ppl are no doubt an honest bunch, but the leaders are along with the Zionists, the most corrupt bunch. What are the improvements mqanifested in the US invasion  in Iraq or Afghanistan for that matter?Look at the facts before using the Patriotism card. The worst thing about it is that you say generosity? Tell me pls, where is the generosity in dismantling the entire Iraqi infrastructure then creating a debt for Iraq to pay back?"

     

    My response :  Again you did not answer my question accurately. You did not justify how America stolen any OIL from Iraq. America spend over 300B dollars from tax payers money and sacrificed 3000 soldiers only to check breeding ground of would be Islamic terrorists in Iraq. Iraq today is the central battle field to fight al-Qaeda Islamists. After Afghanistan , Iraq today was destined to be the breeding ground of Islamic terrorist but America did not let it happen. America don't need to worry for oil; it's the oil-rich Arabs who should be worried if America someday stops buying their oil. In that scenario Arabs will go back to their tents in the desert again.      

     

    There can not be a scenario where all people are honest but only leaders are dishonest and this is absurd. When leaders are corrupt, citizens also bound to be corrupt at the same speed. You can not prove that American leaders are dishonest/corrupt (of course there may be some minimal exception) and only because American leaders do support Israel or attacked Iraq does not prove that American leaders are corrupt at all.   Just give me a list of American Presidents who stolen public money to build their home in some foreign country or have money in Swiss-bank!!! Mr. Aztek things which you do not know about America are: even a mighty American President will lose his job if he steal just 1 dollar from public fund; any mighty politician if he/she is caught with corruption then he/she will be in prison. These things never happen in the Third-world country. To my knowledge—American politicians are the least corrupt than any Politicians of the entire third world in general and entire Muslim world in particular. You prove me wrong!!!

     

    Of course, if you think just because American president ordered to bomb those Islamic terrorists or Islamic nations harboring terrorists then it is different issue altogether.

     

    Saddam did have WDM, he used it against Iran and against his own citizens and he consistently pursued WMD, he occupied his neighbor, he paid $20,000.00 dollars for each suicide bombers in Israel and he was dead enemy of America. Therefore, it was right decision by President Bush to remove this brutal dictator who could harbor terrorists too.

     

    American did not get WMD so what? Saddam may have destroyed them or transported to his neighboring Syria. Saddam was not any angel, is not it brother Aztek?  Do you think keeping Saddam intact in Iraq was good for Iraqi people? Iraq today is suffering not from American invasion; but getting devastated by Islamic jihadis utopia. They are killing each other like dogs and cats. And most Arabs and Iran is helping them to kill each other. Who to blame for their Islamic stupidity?

     

    Q.3   You know what brother Aztek? You the Islamic terrorists actually invited America to invade your country. Remember please had there been no 9/11; there would have been no Afghan/Iraq wars today, period.

    Aztek's  response: "Everyone with a modicum of a brain cell can see that 9-11 was a CIA fix. See the scientific evidence to realise that the implosion of the Twin Towers was not consistent with an aircraft flying through the  structures. Islam does not teach us to be terrorists. It is a misconception of an unfortunate few. Terrorism is wrong and cannot be condoned under Islam or any other moral teaching. Unfortunately all religions especially Christinaity ( i.e. Crusades) have had morons who taint their religion."

    My Response:   Islam of course teaches terrorism to spread islam. Quran is the greatest manual of terrorism. Please read my essay in the URL address below to learn how Quran is the root of terrorism. Please click to:

      http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/TerrorManual.htm

     

    Conspiracy theory about 9/11?

     

    This conspiracy theory is the lousiest idea that has ever manufactured by the idle brains of Islamists. This theory of course is rotten theory now since it has repeatedly denied by the best Muslim Osam Bin laden's (OBL) tape messages already numerous occasions. OBL's tapes have been widely accepted by the entire world. This is of course an amazing conspiracy theory about 9/11 incident. Yes, like some other clever Islamists, you also happy to believe this nonsense that is: American Govt. intentionally orchestrated 9/11 and killed 3 thousands innocent Americans, destroyed 100s of Billions of dollars worth of property and business—only to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. What an intelligent theory! It takes very fertile brains (Muslim brains) to create such illusionary idiotic theory of course.  Without much argument, let me ask you a few genuine questions to judge your hilarious theory:

     (a) Say I believe your theory entirely. But I have a terrible problem with Islamic terrorist's king Osama bin Laden (OBL) and his jihadis. This king of Islamic terrorists openly admitted at least 6/7 times in his tape-messages (broadcast from Al-zazyra) that it was he himself who orchestrated this heinous terrorist act to kill western kaffirs and he repeatedly justified his acts with Quranic dictums and ahadiths. Not only that, all his deputies that have been captured also proudly admitted the crime as part of their jihad against infidel Americans. Nobody including OBL has ever denied the crime or told us that they have been blamed unjustly; rather they all bragged about the great success of killing infidels in 9/11.   And even today they all frequently threatening western kaffirs by 9/11 style of terrorism. Please tell me why they should do this stupidity if 9/11 was done by American Govt.? Why they including OBL never say to the world that, "We did not commit 9/11 and we are wrongly blamed for 9/11" ???

    (b)  Please give me one incident from the history of humankind where any mighty power who (such as Alexander the great, Czengis khan, Islamic Arab invaders, Greeks, Romans or even those modern days powers like: British, France, Dutch, Spain etc.) first destroyed their own people/property as the pretext to invade or destroy other nations. This is simply ridiculous!

    (c) Please convince me with your good logic/sense why the only super power mighty America should need first to destroy its own citizens and property before it can invade another country? Why not America as the mighty super power can invade any country it likes anytime?  Who can stop American mighty power from invading another country?

    (d) Why just recently (July 27, 2006) Al-Qaeda 2nd man Al-Zawahari (A pure Muslim just like prophet Muhammad) giving his tape message to the world hanging picture of destroyed/burning WTC and Muhammad Ata (the ring leader of 9/11 incident) as the bragging signs and boosting claim that al-Qaeda Islamic terrorist really did 9/11 horrific terrorism and he was threatening to inflict more of the same to American infidels? Do you have any answer to these?  

    If you can answer the above questions and convince me that America really needed to kill its own citizen first to invade another nation then I will gladly accept your most weird theory of 9/11—which you people are desperately trying to fool the world with utter nonsense!   Thanks.

    Syed K. Mirza (SKM)

    Editor,
    Islam-watch.org

  •  09-29-2006, 11:08 AM 769 in reply to 767

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked

    While I normally have found myself on the opposite sides of discussions with Mr Mirza, I would have to agree with him here that the conspiracy theory was the invention of fools who are trying to pull the wool over their brothers eyes.

    Tiermo

  •  09-29-2006, 1:25 PM 770 in reply to 767

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked

    Q1 Brother Aztek you did not answer my question. You are quite ignorant about Quran and islam.You should tell me as to what scientific formula you have discovered in Islam that proved that Islam is true religion. Please answer this question above. Blood clot can give rise anything but some rotten foul smelling stuff. Finding your so called science will be handled by my attached essay. Please read my essay to learn about science in...

     AZTEK's response


    Mirza,

    My question was a direct answer to yours. Even if my Islam is false so is your Big Bang theory. Why do I keep mentioning Big Bang? Because how else could you have got here if there is no higher power? So clearly there is a God. The God of Christianity and Islam is one and the same. Almost 60% (the majority) of the planet's population are either muslim or Christian. 60% cannot be wrong. Therefore my argument to you is that there is a God. But my point is that Christinaity is flawed, not Islam, because God cannot be simultaneously divine and split 3 ways, by pure logic.

    Science and the Qur'an are totally compatible. The Qur'an is rich in scientific detail. It encourages man to "seek knowledge" and gives explanations to phenomena that could not have possibly been known in the epoch in question. This is why it is far superior to the Bible. It can be proved that the probability of all the cases of  higher knowledge (scientific statements in Qur'an) being guessed by an illiterate man is zero. Thus the Qur'an is the word of God, not man.

    Now, having established that, I move onto your most flawed of nonsensical clap-trap you claim to be an essay on Science and the holy book:

    QUOTE:

    " Quran-3:169-: Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; (Here Allah is saying that those jihadi who dies [commit suicide] is not dead but he will be living with Allah).

    Now, I do not believe that anybody can have slightest doubt that the above clear invitations (from Allah) for the ardent fanatical believers can very easily convince the blind pukka (pure) Muslims to become a time-bomb (suicidal) in order to kill infidels/kaffirs-for the cause of Allah! The above verses (9:111; 3:169; 4:74; 4:95) are clearly ordering devout Muslims "to kill and be killed"; that is, Allah is teaching Muslims to sacrifice their own lives (to commit suicide) in His cause (Allah's cause) in order to kill infidels (enemy of Allah).

    But this is not all! Quran is loaded with numerous (killing) verses ordering the ardent followers to carry out endless killing of infidels/unbelievers until only Muslims remain to inhibit this Earth owned by Islamic Allah. Here are some more examples:  

    Quran-8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere (in this earth of Allah). 

    Quran-9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. [Allah's hatred to those who are reluctant to join Islamic jihad] 

    Quran-9:73, O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.  

    Quran-8:66:"-.if there are a 100 of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish 2,00, and if a 1,000 , they will vanquish 2,000 (two thousands) with the leave of Allah-" [This fabulous verse was written in the diary of Muhammad Ata the leader of 9/11 terrorists]. 

    Quran-4:78: "Where ye are, death will find you, even if ye are in Towers, built up strong and tall" (Perhaps Twin towers was meant here?) 

    Quran-2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression  

    Quran-2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you 

    Quran-5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; "

    All the nonsense you have stated is, to an intelligent man, absolutley flawed.You have taken every verse out of context and placed it in such a way that a layman could easily misinterpret its meaning. Deep down you know as well as I do that this is the same flawed argument that all the Christians use against Islam and have been rebutted throughout history. It is pathetic.

    These messages are in no way telling ppl to go out and murder the infidel. In the context, Allah was telling muslims to fight for their religion; to kill the enemy when they were being persecuted. You know the history of the holy prophet, he tolerated a huge amount of abuse. Allah is saying that muslims should not be scared to fight for their religion if under attack from the infidel. It says that we should be willing to die if placed in circumstances like a cornered animal. The epoch was a violent and brutal one, hence the language. The religion is definitely not telling us to go out and murder innocent people. What religion could tell its believers to exterminate the rest of mankind because of what they believe? ABSOLUTELY NONE!!! The holy book clearly states "There is no compulsion in religion"

    Are you telling me if there was an apostates society and they came under attack you wouldn't risk your life to save your people? The answer is yes. Why therefore should the quotes you have used mean go out and suicide bomb a bus?

    Q2: Again you did not answer my question accurately. You did not justify how America stolen any OIL from Iraq. America spend over 300B dollars from tax payers money and sacrificed 3000 soldiers only to check breeding ground of would be Islamic terrorists in Iraq. Iraq today is the central battle field to fight al-Qaeda Islamists. After Afghanistan , Iraq today was destined to be the breeding ground of Islamic terrorist but America did not let it happen. America don't need to worry for oil; it's the oil-rich Arabs who should be worried if America someday stops buying their oil. In that scenario Arabs will go back to their tents in the desert again.      


    The Americans have swanned into Iraq, taken power and cliamed all Iraqi assets through "placing" an "American ally" in power. How then have they not stolen Oil? Your argument is so atrocious and naive.


    Q3: My Response:

    Conspiracy theory about 9/11?

    AZTEK's response:

    I have already answered the first part of your question.

    So you think 9-11 wasn't a fix? OK, so tell me why fellow Americans, not Arabs, have shown that there is substantial evidence of a fix?

    The Towers were due for insurane renewal, prior to 9-11; the structrures were deemed to have no value, they were in disrepair and surplus to requirements. The manner in which they imploded was inconsistent with that of a plane flying through the building. These are the facts.

    America cannot just go to War or the whole world would be in outrage and they would get no support, American ppl would riot to see theire taxes being wasted. There has to be a valid and justifiable pretext for War. Everyone knows this man.

    And if Bin Laden was a terrorist, how did USA capture Saddam and not him? DO you not think that Osama might be in on the whole fix and why they have mysteriously found no trace of him, despite the Afghan border being so close to the Pakistani border, thos great msulim alllies of the US?

    You do the Math mate.....CASE PROVED.

  •  09-29-2006, 1:40 PM 771 in reply to 769

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    Tiermo and Mirza,

    You are typical of all the ppl who have an inclinatin to believe the media hype and propaganda they are subject to every day of their lives. Stop and look around the US at the hypocrisy of it's values. The think objectively and I am sure you will eventually reach the same conclusion as I.

    I state facts, i do not boast.

  •  09-29-2006, 2:44 PM 774 in reply to 771

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked

    Whomever you are hiding behind that name. I only agreed the conspiracy was false, nothing more. If you had taken a few seconds to view my posts you would see that I am one of the few people on hre to present opposing arguments for the side of Islam.  By ranting and raving and calling people morons what you do is build up their thoughts that all Muslims are screaming in the street and hitting themselves with chains. Grow up and actually contribute something worthwhile to read.

    Tiermo

  •  09-29-2006, 3:07 PM 777 in reply to 774

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    Tiermo my friend I do not like your tone.

    I have responded to your point by making a perfectly sound argument.

    A moron is someone who is notably lacking in good judgement. I have not offended anyone by saying moron, especially when they are making idiotic comments.

    I do not think that after viewing my posts people will in your words "build up their thoughts that all Muslims are screaming in the street and hitting themselves with chains". Where did you get this idea?
    As for the fact that I need to "Grow up and actually contribute something worthwhile to read", I think my posts speak for themselves.

    What I will not tolerate however, is ppl who make mindless and blasphemous remarks about the last prophet and about Islam (sic. Mr Mirza).

  •  09-29-2006, 3:50 PM 778 in reply to 777

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    iq balz,

    Tiermo is right. Your posts make strong claims but they are weak on support. You do not show evidence of having researched the points at issue, and it seems to be thrown together hastily, without having been thought through. If you are claiming there was a U.S. conspiracy of some kind to kill approximately 3000 of its own citizens, then you better put up some solid evidence in support of that. Your case has to be stronger than the accepted account of events.

    -Arch

  •  09-30-2006, 7:35 AM 793 in reply to 778

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    Fair point mate but if I was to quote from all the various sources we would be here for ever.

    The arguments I make are meant to prompt good ppl such as yourselevs to satisfy your curiosity by searching for the truth yourseleves. The idea is that along the way you will alos come across all the things in support of Islam which will also support my point. By me just providing a hyper-link you are missing all the good stuff out there.

    Take this how you like but my points, I agree, are hasty summaries, albeit, of reliable info I assimilate over the course of my life.

  •  09-30-2006, 6:53 PM 800 in reply to 793

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    iq balz,

    The point is to bring that evidence here. If this conspiracy theory were true, then there should be strong physical evidence for it. If you don't have a credible source, then the question is, Why should we believe you? (and also, Why do you believe it?  You would not accept stories without evidence generally, right? Then why accept these conspiracy theories, which have been debunked?)
    -Arch

  •  10-01-2006, 9:07 AM 810 in reply to 800

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    Arch,
     
    Will I admire your quest for the truth about 9-11 quite frankly whether you or anyone else believes it was a conspiracy is beside the point. Unfortately when doing some research on the incident a couple of years ago there was some excellent web materila which now seems to have dispapeared/renamed not sure which so it wll take me some time to convince you (time which i unfortunately don't have). What I would say to you however is that all debunkers win the day by writing in a language that makes the cospiracist seem foolish  -this is clever journalism. However, going beyond the words, I invite you to consider what motives America could have have for plotting such a conspiracy. Do you not think that corruption starts from the top? If the US wanted to pull it off, do you not think they damn well could do, regardless of the odds?

    After all they have waged an illegal war against Iraq. They never said they were going after the terrrorists; they claimed they wanted to find Saddam's WMDs. Of course by logic this implies they are combatting a terrrorism of sorts but why not go after the terrorists first? And either
    1) there clearly weren't any WMDs
    2) They destroyed them in the daily bombing campaigns as they were the ones who sold them to SH in the first place - what else could they have been incessantly bombing for months (other than the poor innocents of course who are labelled COLLATERAL DAMAGE.)

    My point to Mirza is that Islam does not condone terrorism. There are a minority who act for what they feel (and are right in thinking) is a worthy cause.

    We are dealing here with a myriad of people who either follow religion, are agnostic or unsure.

    My brief argument is there is a God and that God is Islam's Allah. There is ample evidence in the Qur'an alone to prove this. Read it objectively (i.e. assume you know nothing else)

    See my message to someone who is a little lost themselves:


    "All a muslim can do is use the sources we have to justify our points.

    I would disagree with your point that all my arguments have seen before because I attempt to infuse real life situations in my posts to show the relevance of Islam in today's society. By looking at the hypocrisies in our world, Islam shines as a beacon. I think you are a victim of those muslims who contravene the teachings of Allah. This has caused you to be disgusted at muslims and Islam, through bad personal experiences. This can happen, especially in this imperfect existence we share.

    A1: As I have painstakingly pointed out in the forums, a system will fail even if it is perfect, because there is human intervention and these humans (bad muslims) misinterprete Islam.

    The point here is that, as you have stated, you believe in a God. Now you think that Allah is cruel and Islam is a fake message. OK fine, but cerca 60% of the world's religion are Muslim or Christian. SO, we both would agree that there is a God, but which God to follow, the Christian Trinity or Allah? YOU have to ask yourslef, if there is God, surely he should send mankind guidance as we are inherently weak (as per A1), i.e. a book narrated/given to a Prophet. I will come back to this.

    Jesus nowhere stated he was the last Prophet. There is much evidence even in the Bible to suggest that Jesus was not the last messenger of Allah. Muhammad did claim to be the last and it is universally recognised that there have been no instances of such "successful" "prophets" since his time ( I refer to the spread of one religion from scratch). Therefore it is not inconceivable that M was last prophet of Allah.

    However, you think M is a hypocrite. My point to you is that Jesus is painted in such a beautiful light (I do not suggest he was in any way a bad man or bad exmaple - far from it). Why? Beacuse the Bible is unreliable - it has been butchered and translated and re-translated on numerous occassions over history. The Christians themselves cannot decide how many books comprise God's message to them.

    They want a nice happy ending in paradise because Jesus bore all the punishment for their sins, regardless of what those sins were, theirs is allegedly a religion of peace and evrything is hunky-dory and their world is not a bad place. You know very well taht Christianity is very convenient and their holy book reflects this ideal. The Qur'an however has remained far more intact and is still printed in the original Arabic transcript. Now you tell me which book you would be inclined to believe?

    Muslims have to work far harder for paradise, through sacrifice and a way of life - is this absurd to you? Doesn't a hard worker deserve all the more reward than a lazy person doing the bare mimimum? This is why God has given us free will, "There is no compulsion in religion" and to paraphrase the Qur'an "If Allah willed all men would go to paradise". Allah has given us a test over which he has no control (we shape our own destiny through our choices).But he has given us an incentive, forms of control, ability to preserve the religion through killing the infidel in times of oppression (all of which are misread by apostates). The biggest incentive to cure our inherent weakness I described earlier, is the brutal punishment described as Jahannum. What an incentive Islam gives us to avoid such an abode? QUR'AN IS THUS OUR GUIDANCE FROM GOD.

    This is why the Qur'an mentions and describes violence in vivid detail. It is to lead us to the right path. Of course if one takes phrases out of context as you ahve repeatedly done, then Islam and M's message seem flawed. But look at them in the histoircal context and the immoral world of today. The Qur'an, you must agree to some extent, would cure many of societies ills. The Bible and Torah did not remedy such issues so comprehensively. The only problem for Islam therefore, is the ppl who do not act to it's instructions (bringing us back full circle to perfect system, flawed practitioners).

    The key to all this talk is that very few people are worthy of paradise, as good is always a minority, due to Satan's work. Thus in every walk of life there are more bad, immoral ppl than good. This has contributed to your disillusionment with Islam, through interaction with bad muslims. Now I do not cliam to be perfect but if you follow my logic, we humans do need guidance and Allah rewards us for all our good deeds regardless of how small. Thus we should not despair and ignore the truth to which we have accesss through the Qur'an, to reject it's teachings completely. Rather than disillusionment you should consider the relevance of the holy book in safeguarding ourselves and our families from the evil elements of our society. It makes us better people. Rather than despairing with those who misinterpret the Qur'an's teachings we should propagate and educate; this is a gift Allah has given us (look at yourself and the website and audience you command). This is probably the precise reason you still believe in God.

    I look forward to your thoughts.

    Best of luck."

  •  10-01-2006, 9:51 AM 812 in reply to 810

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    iq balz,

    My request from you was an exercise to see what kind of evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy, if any, you'd bring to the table. Until I see evidence contrary to the accepted and most likely story, for which there is abundant physical evidence (as well as multiple confessions from the planners), there is simply no reason to believe the conspiracy theories.

    As for Allah and Mohammad, you will have to show strong evidence that the former exists and that the latter was his prophet. But that's not enough. You would also have to show that the doctrine is morally sound. Otherwise, even if Allah exists and Mohammad is his prophet, it would be wrong to follow instructions that are not morally sound.
    -Arch

  •  10-02-2006, 3:58 PM 854 in reply to 812

    Re: Syed Mirza challenge from Aztek

    Locked
    Arch,

    I understand where you are coming from. Since we are discussing religion let's therefore stick to that.

    I think that if one considers the Big Bang theory of existence they will find that it is scientifically flawed. See Dr Zakir Naik's proof on this. It is mathematically correct. Then as I have stated before there must be a higher power. Even if Islam is false so is Big Bang theory. Why do I keep mentioning Big Bang? Because how else could you have got here if there is no higher power? So clearly there is a God. The God of Christianity and Islam is one and the same. Almost 60% (the majority) of the planet's population are either muslim or Christian. 60% cannot be wrong. Therefore my argument to you is that there is a God. But my point is that Christinaity is flawed, not Islam, because God cannot be simultaneously divine and split 3 ways, by pure logic.

    Science and the Qur'an are totally compatible. The Qur'an is rich in scientific detail. It encourages man to "seek knowledge" and gives explanations to phenomena that could not have possibly been known in the epoch in question. This is why it is far superior to the Bible. It can be proved that the probability of all the cases of  higher knowledge (scientific statements in Qur'an) being guessed by an illiterate man is zero. Thus the Qur'an is the word of God, not man.
    Now most people argue that the Qur'an is full of contradictions. However, even if it was, even the most ardent enemy of Islam cannot deny (upon reading the Qur'an) that it promotes and mentions all of the following; all of the items on the following list are morally sound (since Islam, Muhammad (SAW) and Allah all promote the Qur'an let us analyse this only (forget Hadith)):

    Belief in the Torah, Bible and Qur'an & Allah's angels
    Giving of regular charity
    Protection and care of orphans
    Looking after family
    Fasting
    Equality for all mankind (regardless of colour, gender, nationality)
    Enabling free will and choice of religion
    Protection of women and their modesty
    Peace and kindness to all mankind
    Humility and compassion
    Striving in Allah's cause (JIHAD)
    Respect to all mankind, in particular one's parents
    Prohibition in interest transactions
    Profit -sharing, not a rich-poor divide/survival of the fittest ethos

    Arguments against Islam:
    Violence and killing of the infidel
    Spreading of Islam by the sword
    Disrespect of women

    The holy book's messages are in no way telling ppl to go out and murder the infidel. In the context, Allah was telling muslims to fight for their religion; to kill the enemy when they were being persecuted. You know the history of the holy prophet, he tolerated a huge amount of abuse. Allah is saying that muslims should not be scared to fight for their religion if under attack from the infidel. It says that we should be willing to die if placed in circumstances like a cornered animal. The epoch was a violent and brutal one, hence the language. The religion is definitely not telling us to go out and murder innocent people. What religion could tell its believers to exterminate the rest of mankind because of what they believe? ABSOLUTELY NONE!!! The holy book clearly states "There is no compulsion in religion"

    I am not sure why ppl think Islam teaches that women should be degraded and treated as filthy sex slaves.

    Women can be beaten, but only if they pass certain boundaries and as I have previously pointed out this is a very, very last resort. Not all men should even feel the need to go so far. And whether a religion teaches it or not, most men may lose control anyway as humans are weak by design (muslim or not). By no means are we encouraged to be violent unnecessarily. And there shouldn't really be a need for this anyway.

    Jesus nowhere stated he was the last Prophet. There is much evidence even in the Bible to suggest that Jesus was not the last messenger of Allah. Muhammad did claim to be the last and it is universally recognised that there have been no instances of such "successful" "prophets" since his time ( I refer to the spread of one religion from scratch). Therefore it is not inconceivable that M was last prophet of Allah.

    However, you think M is a hypocrite. My point to you is that Jesus is painted in such a beautiful light (I do not suggest he was in any way a bad man or bad exmaple - far from it). Why? Beacuse the Bible is unreliable - it has been butchered and translated and re-translated on numerous occassions over history. The Christians themselves cannot decide how many books comprise God's message to them.

    They want a nice happy ending in paradise because Jesus bore all the punishment for their sins, regardless of what those sins were, theirs is allegedly a religion of peace and evrything is hunky-dory and their world is not a bad place. You know very well taht Christianity is very convenient and their holy book reflects this ideal. The Qur'an however has remained far more intact and is still printed in the original Arabic transcript. Now you tell me which book you would be inclined to believe?

    Muslims have to work far harder for paradise, through sacrifice and a way of life - is this absurd to you? Doesn't a hard worker deserve all the more reward than a lazy person doing the bare mimimum? This is why God has given us free will, "There is no compulsion in religion" and to paraphrase the Qur'an "If Allah willed all men would go to paradise". Allah has given us a test over which he has no control (we shape our own destiny through our choices).But he has given us an incentive, forms of control, ability to preserve the religion through killing the infidel in times of oppression (all of which are misread by apostates). The biggest incentive to cure our inherent weakness I described earlier, is the brutal punishment described as Jahannum. What an incentive Islam gives us to avoid such an abode? QUR'AN IS THUS OUR GUIDANCE FROM GOD.

    This is why the Qur'an mentions and describes violence in vivid detail. It is to lead us to the right path. Of course if one takes phrases out of context as you ahve repeatedly done, then Islam and M's message seem flawed. But look at them in the histoircal context and the immoral world of today. The Qur'an, you must agree to some extent, would cure many of societies ills. The Bible and Torah did not remedy such issues so comprehensively. The only problem for Islam therefore, is the ppl who do not act to it's instructions (bringing us back full circle to perfect system, flawed practitioners).

    Quote from apostate: "Islam was a "religion" designed by Muhammad to acquire what he craved; this being money, women, status and power. He claimed to be a prophet, yet provided no proof, bastardized jewish/christian scriptures and claimed it as the Quran."

    1) Muhammad (SAW) was a humble man, he did not accumulate wealth and left the world with little by way of property or wealth
    2) Promiscuity is banned in Islam. Sex is only allowed in wwdlock. We are told in the Qur'an to be modest, to not oggle women etc. hence the viel to protect females from perverts (they were rife in that epoch, hence the advent of Islam to counter the anti-social riff-raff. By guarding against wanton sex, out reward in paradise is the most beautiful virgin wife, untouched by any man or Jinn. Fair enough?
    3)Status comes from money - see 1).
    4)Power was not relevant - the Prophet's task was to spread the message which he did. At one time Islam ruled across the World. Ppl say spread by the sword, but you name me one single muslim Army which went to Indonesia (largest mulsim population) to spread the word? Then compare this to the Crusaders for example. If Islam ruled why weren't all infidels killed - this was an option. It was not necessary. islam does not teach this.
    5) Muhammad (SAW) was not a paedophile.This is not consistent with the Qur'an's message and teachings. It does not say anywhere that man must sleep with child. Do you not think that when the Hadith were compiled it would have been omitted if the scholars thought it would cause controversy? It needn't have been. The "hadith" in question is flawed and has been disregarded.It is not seen as a threat.
    6) Different Prophets had different purposes . Jesus performed miracles, Solomon commanded Jinns. M was the last prophet. People wanted him to perform miracles but he did not need to . His task was to perfect the religion and its message. Allah woshed people to make their own minds up and to believe in the unseen through the signs all around us alluded to in the Qur'an. This is free will man has been given. To mkae our own choices and read these signs. Allah stated in the Qur'an that if he willed everyone would go to paradise. The point is that this life is a test, like an exam to pass or fail. Failure means the hell-fire which allah has kindly described in brutal detail, for us to ensure we avoid it (by r