Islam Watch

Islamic Logic In Action

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Editor,
Islam-watch.org

Dr Naik is not a spokesman for all Muslims. I find it funny you mention the Declaration of Human Rights, but you avoid following many of the articles yourself. Hypocracy maybe?

Peace Forever - that was very interesting. Not being an expert in logical fallacies, I'm trying to figure out if the reasoning being used is "petitio principii" (begging the question or circular reasoning):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

or rather, the "fallacy of many questions"?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions

 

Oh - and I guess what I wanted to add is that if you could identify the precise logical fallacy being demonstrated, it would be useful in such an article (about "Islamic logic in action") to actually name the logical fallacy being demonstrated in Naik's reasoning.

TiermoT:

Dr Naik is not a spokesman for all Muslims. I find it funny you mention the Declaration of Human Rights, but you avoid following many of the articles yourself. Hypocracy maybe?

Where I have said that?

Can you show me where I said Zakir Naik was a spokesman for all muslims?

Even he isn't  you have to prove what he said is wrong, which you basically haven't, so your allegation doesn't have any grounds.

And claiming that I have voilated the Human rights decleration is a serious alegation, can you prove it?

I never forced any muslim to leave Islam, I only urged them to leave islam. That comes under freedom of opinion and expression which in itself is prescribed by Article 3 of  Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

so whould you care to show how I voilated the decleration?

Thanks

Caroline1:

Oh - and I guess what I wanted to add is that if you could identify the precise logical fallacy being demonstrated, it would be useful in such an article (about "Islamic logic in action") to actually name the logical fallacy being demonstrated in Naik's reasoning.

I will do that and post it.

I did not say that you said he was a spokesman, I said he was not one for all Muslims, maybe you are just have some feelings of guilt. I never said you violated anything, again you are a pro at putting words in peoples mouth. I said you avoid following some of the articles. Lets see which ones...

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

You dont act in the spirit of brotherhood on this site, lets see what you have said to other muslims...

yeah! clean your ass with odd number of stones, it is hygenic... funny he he he. he had time to tell that you have to clean with odd number of stones but not to prophibit slavery completely. for that matter he itself praticed slavery. Any way it is no excuse for not prohbittiong slavery, Don't  tell me that Muhammad in his entire 23 yrs of prophethood that he found all the time to tell about how to perform abolustion, how many no of stones to use for cleaning your ass, what you should say before sex! but not this.

 

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty

Your work to try to eradicate Islam goes against this article as well buddy.

 

I could go on, but you get the point. If you really believe in these articles this website would be obsolete, but you dont, you continue to demonize this beautiful religion and its peoples. The Jihad continues.

Der TiemoT,

Thank you for replying, below is my reply.

TiermoT:

I did not say that you said he was a spokesman, I said he was not one for all Muslims, maybe you are just have some feelings of guilt.

So we both agree I never claimed such a thing?

If yes, why was that point relevant at all? if I never claimed something then why did you make it a point, in relevance to my article?

TiermoT:

I never said you violated anything, again you are a pro at putting words in peoples mouth. I said you avoid following some of the articles. Lets see which ones...

If I avoid eating food then I am not eaiting it, If I avoid following some rules then I am not following the Human rights decleration thereby voilating it. And in fact you point out the so called violation of the declaration  by saying that I didn't act with botherhood when the decleration calls for it. If this not to be termed as violation then what is violation?

In the light of it, it doesn't make sense that you supposedly quote an instance that which seemingly shows I acted opposite to the Decleration and still maintain that you never claimed that I violted the decleration.

Are you sure what you are trying to say?

TiermoT:

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

You dont act in the spirit of brotherhood on this site, lets see what you have said to other muslims...

yeah! clean your ass with odd number of stones, it is hygenic... funny he he he. he had time to tell that you have to clean with odd number of stones but not to prophibit slavery completely. for that matter he itself praticed slavery. Any way it is no excuse for not prohbittiong slavery, Don't  tell me that Muhammad in his entire 23 yrs of prophethood that he found all the time to tell about how to perform abolustion, how many no of stones to use for cleaning your ass, what you should say before sex! but not this.

Now what is the definition of brotherhood for you? Iq_baz claimed that it is hygenic to to use stones. I asked how is it important for you  to use ODD no. of stones? I differed in opinion and reasoned out to him. How have I acted without brotherhood here?

The critcizism is on the practice of using ODD no of stones. I think it is nonsesne. That is my opinion, why shouldn't I have such a opinion?

TiermoT:

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty

Your work to try to eradicate Islam goes against this article as well buddy.

Again I am not forcing muslims to leave Islam, I am only urging them to leave islam. If they choose to be a muslim I am not forcing them out.

So how is it a voilation of the article. The article says every one had the right to choose his religion. I am pointing out the flaws of Islam, if you still want to be a muslim thats your wish. where have I said you shouldn't be a muslim or Else?

If you think that is violation of the Article, which is not, what about your prophet, didn't he claim other religions are false? Called people to embrace Islam? So your prophet voilated the decalreation?

TiermoT:

I could go on, but you get the point. If you really believe in these articles this website would be obsolete, but you dont, you continue to demonize this beautiful religion and its peoples. The Jihad continues.

Funny, you haven't even pointed a single one. Islam is beautiful to you, and is ugly to me. i am going about saying why it looks ugly to me and this website, That is my opinion. The Decalaration allows one to have a freedom of expression of his opinions. I am just exercising my right. you have failed to show even a single instance of me voilation or avoiding the articles of the decleration.

Thanks

Talking of Universal Declaration of Human Rights violations would you explain why would the Government punish the Mafia? Because they're doing the world a lot of bad and not as an act of violation of human rights. I think it is in greater interest of the society to reveal a cult which is much, much worse than the Mafia. This site is revealing the truth and it does not force anti-Islam teachings down our throats. I chose to come to this site of my accord while I don't have a choice to leave Islam in my country, they'll go by the sharia law if i told them that. Who is more just, this site or the Islamists?

Aby stated I left Islam at the age of 14, not on anyone's coaxing, before I came across the word 'internet'. I was raised from pious Muslim parents who are same now, but my logic protested against Islam. I left the Madrassa I studied because I can't see anything reasonable in those inhuman teachings of Muhammad including the verses mentioned above

 

Then stated This site is revealing the truth and it does not force anti-Islam teachings down our throats. I chose to come to this site of my accord while I don't have a choice to leave Islam in my country, they'll go by the sharia law if i told them that. Who is more just, this site or the Islamists?

 

So help me understand this please, you indicated at 14 you left Islam at your choice, ok that is your choice, I never said anything to the opposite of that. Then you say in another post you have no choice to leave Islam. Those two statements contradict each other, on one hand you say you left on the other you say you didn’t?

 

You then state “I think it is in greater interest of the society to reveal a cult which is much, much worse than the Mafia.”

 

Frankly I don’t compare the Mafia, or any other thug gang to a religion, or try to justify why the Mafia is somehow better when compared to something else, it just doesn’t make sense unless the person making such an argument was a member of such a gang and wanted to try to make it look better.

 

You also stated This site is revealing the truth and it does not force anti-Islam teachings down our throats.

This site does not offer the truth to anything, what it does is afford people of different viewpoints to offer such viewpoints up for public consumption and discussion. Posting verse or the like, is not offering the truth, that is mere quoting, and nothing more. If you read all of the works on this site you will that it is a collection of “stuff” from different people, some is good, some not so good (Read some of Sina’s classic articles or the articles which make fun of and try to humiliate defenseless women whom choose to wear certain garb).

 

Tiermo

I have left Islam on my own choice but I have no choice when I comes to expressing my choice to my own people. Apparently I can't express that choice or my own people would kill me for being an apostate. Even thought I left Islam in my own choice, leaving Islam officially isn't a choice in an Islamic society. I don't have a choice and say I am no longer a Muslim and so no longer bound by Islamic cutoms and law in my muslim country: as I left Islam by choice. Thats what I meant.

If we let a violent cult or Mafia carry on their ideology it will be harmful for humaity. To protect humanity we need to curb that group even though to those cults it might look like violation of human right. The question is of ideology. Islamic laws are extremely harsh and I don't understand why a person has to be killed if he left Islam. Obviously they don't respect choice in religion or have something to hide.

Talking about this site, the viewpoints in this site reflect many truths which are hidden from Islam by the cunning clerics to make Islam look good. This articles on this site expose this 'hidden, dark side' as a result they give an all round view of the Islamic faith. Hence I say they give an opportunity for Muslims to view the truth of their religion which coupled with their religious teachings can help them make their choice.

Sina used logic to counter the reason behind wearing viel and all those boundaries created by Muslims in the non-muslim countries. There is no racism in 'infidel' countries and they don't plot to harm me every minute with a treacherous hearts. The racism is imaginary as created by the Muslims as they refuse to integrate and respect the non-muslim culture even if they don't follow it. It is funny how Islamic countries discriminate against 'infidel' while those 'infidel' western countries do not discriminate against muslims. Putting logic to elaborate this 'shell' attitude is not 'critisizing defenceless people'.

TiermoT:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood

Pity the sunnis and shiites cant read...probably too busy proving who has the most spirit of brotherhood I guess?

Or maybe they are confused over the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Cairo Declaration?...you know the part in the Cairo dec' where it says

"...All human beings are God’s subjects, and the most loved by him are those who are most useful to the rest of His subjects, and no one has superiority over another except on the basis of piety and good deeds..."

Now perhaps the confusion is with piety and good deeds...

Ah well...must just be my lack of understanding as a kaffir...or the debauched mind of the ummah.

 

 

 

 

 

Ah yes the Sunni and Shia' brothers are doing more harm to Islam these days than good. I am guessing that this is due to them being pitted against each other all those years with Saddam. He himself was not exactly the model muslim. I would say the mingling in the middle east has done more to spawn this behavior than to quell it. Just look at the states in the area, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, none of those has an overwhelming presence of radicalism, now they are loosing their fight as well.

Actually the Cairo Declaration said http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/cairodeclaration.html

(a) All human beings form one family whose members are united by their subordination to Allah and descent from Adam. All men are equal in terms of basic human dignity and basic obligations and responsibilities, without any discrimination on the basis of race, colour, language, belief, sex, religion, political affiliation, social status or other considerations. The true religion is the guarantee for enhancing such dignity along the path to human integrity.

(b) All human beings are Allah's subjects, and the most loved by Him are those who are most beneficial to His subjects, and no one has superiority over another except on the basis of piety and good deeds.

The document itself I thought was pretty good, given the input and time it was created.

Hi TiermoT,

I agree that the timeline was well played...but I disagree with the wording and the practice of both A+B.

I find islam to be the paragon of bigotry when it comes to race, language, belief, gender, religion, political affiliation, social status and all other considerations. The sunni shia rift is testament, as is the ongoing disrespect against the host nations where ummah reside, and of course the arrogance to rewrite the declaration as an islamic version. I mean, what gives with the line "...The true religion is the guarantee for enhancing such dignity along the path to human integrity...", if not meant as a validiation of islam over all other religions?

As for the rest of the document...it is nothing more than an islamic propaganda document, meant to keep seperate, not bring together nations both within, and without islam.

*Article 24 + 25 show the absurdity... both are subject to islamic shari'ah, which is anything but moral justice and assumes a single religion / belief where human rights are concerned.

Actually I agree that it is well written, pity it was concieved with a limited audience in mind though.