Islam Under Scrutiny by Ex-Muslims

Unraveling the Sufis of India: Villains in the Guise of Saints

by Ibrahim Lone

25 Dec, 2008

India Has always was a land of diversity. Secularism and peaceful co-existence is not a concept in this land, it is a way of life. The credit goes to the understanding of our great Vedic ancestors (I count Hinduism as practiced today as not Vedic in spirit or essence) who were men of great letters and a mighty spirit. Christianity reached the Indian shores much before it reached Europe. There are Christians, know as Syrian Christians, whose links with the Christian doctrine far outdates that of any other country outside the Middle East. Jews, Zoroastrians, Bahai’s all have found home and safe refuge in this great country.
 
However the only exception to these immigrants was the Muslim, who did not come here to adapt himself to the local culture and live in peace and harmony. He had only one aim, which was to subdue the native populations and wave the flag through the length and breadth of this once great Nation which extended from Dhaka in the East to Khyber in the west.
 
Islam changed smeared the face of this country with a paint so horrific that the colours still refuse to wither out. While there is no denying the fact that Islam was spread in India mostly by the sword, there is another aspect of Islamic proselytization, which is ignored. This face is that of Sufism and the Sufis.
 
Most people in the India have been mislead into believing that the Sufis mostly by their own soft-headed scholars, to cherish the fond belief that the Sufis were spiritual seekers, and that unlike the Mullahs, they loved Hindu religious lore and liked their Hindu neighbors. The Chistiyya Sufis in particular have name chosen for such fulsome praise. The orthodox among the Muslims protest that the Sufis are being slandered. But the gullible Hindus remain convinced that they themselves know better. Professor Aziz Ahmad, a renowned scholar of Islam in India, clinched this matter in the following words: "In Indian sufism anti-Hindu polemics started with Muinal-din Chisti. Early sufis in Punjab and early Chistis devoted themselves to the task of conversion on a large scale. Missionary activity slowed down under Nizam al-din Auliya, not because of any new concept of eclecticism, but because he held that the Hindus were generally excluded from grace and could not be easily converted to Islam unless they had the opportunity to be in the company of the Muslim saints for considerable time." In other words the native Hindus were as a nation, not fitting to become Muslims. This is the sort of hatred that the Sufis had for the Hindus.
 
Of course, the Auliya who lived in a sprawling mansion and received rich gifts out of plunder was convinced that he himself was such a Muslim saint. His temper and teachings can be known easily from the writings of Amir Khusru, the poet, and Ziauddin Barani, the historian. Both of them were leading disciples of the Auliya. Both of them express intense hatred for Hindus, and regret that the Hanafi school of Islamic Law had come in the way of wiping out the "curse of infidelity" completely from the face Hindustan (India).

A similar Sufi saint who died a mere 79 years before Waliullah's birth, was Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624). He was always foaming at the mouth against Akbar's policy of peace with the Hindus. He proclaimed himself the Mujaddid-i-alf-i-sdni, (renovator of the second millennium of Islam). Besides writing several books, he addressed many letters to several powerful courtiers in the reign of Akbar and Jahangir. His Maktiibctt-i-Imdm Rabbant have been collected and published in three volumes. According to Professor S.A.A. Rizvi, "Sharia can be fostered through the sword' was the slogan he raised for his contemporaries.

Let us see a few specimens of his writings in which he expressed the love for the Indian infidels: "The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims. The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam." In Letter No. 81, he said: "Cow-sacrifice in India is the noblest of Islamic practices. The kafirs may probably agree to pay jiziya but they shall never concede to cow-sacrifice." After Guru Mun Deva had been tortured and done to death by Jahangir, he wrote in letter No. 193 that "the execution of the accursed kafir of Gobindwal is an important achievement and is the cause of the great defeat of the Hindus."

Sirhindi ranks with Shah Waliullah as one of the topmost sufis and theologians of Islam. Referring to his role, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, the first Education Minister of independent India, writes in his Tazkirah: "but for these letters Muslim nobles would not have stood by Islam and but for the efforts of Shaikh Ahmad, Akbar's heterodoxy would have superseded Islam in India."' Later on, when K.A. Nizami published a collection of Shah Walilullah's letters addressed to various Muslim notables, including Ahmad Shah Abdali, he dedicated it to Maulana Azad. The Maulana wrote back, "I am extremely happy that you have earned the merit of publishing these letters. I pray from the core of my heart that Allah may bless you with the felicity of publishing many books of a similar kind." That should give us a measure not only of 'Muslim Revivalism' but also of many Maulanas who masqueraded as ardent nationalists in order to fight the battle for Islam from within the Indian National Congress.

It is strange that most of the present-day Muslim scholars refuse to cite the actual statements made about Hindus and Hinduism by their heroes such as Ahmad Sirhindi and Shah Waliullah while praising them to the skies as saviours of Islam in India. Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Allama lqbal were shining examples of this intriguing silence. The late Professor Ishtiaq Husain Qureshi published two significant books on the history of Islam in India - Ulema in Politics (1972), and The Muslim Community of the Indo-Pakistan Subcontinent (1977). He has devoted many pages to Ahmad Sirhindi and Shah Waliullah in both the books. But he has not cited a single sentence written or spoken by the 'great sufis' on how they looked at Hindus and Hinduism. I have no doubt that Nizami has also suppressed those letters of Shah Waliullah in which the latter has poured out his heart about kufr and the kafirs. It is only Professor S.A.A Rizvi who has taken us into the secret chambers so to say. Professor Rizvi is a Shia. And the venom which characters like Ahmad Sirhindi have poured on Hindus and Hinduism is quite comparable to that which they poured out on Shi’as and Shi’ism.

Professor Rizvi has cited select passages from the original Persian of Ahmad Sirhindi's letters. It is only recently that the letters have become available in Urdu translation. Ahmad Sirhindi wrote to many Muslim notables in the reign of Akbar and Jahangir. Some of these letters were in strong protest against Akbar's liberal, equitable policies vis-à-vis Hindus. One of Sirhindi's patrons was Abdul Rahim Khan-i-Khanan whom many Hindus cherish as a Hindi poet and a devotee of Krishna. It is unfortunate that quite a few recipients of these letters cannot be identified straight away because they are addressed by their titles and not by their names. As the letters are not dated, it is difficult to say whether the bearer of a particular title belonged to the reign of Akbar or Jahangir. The same title was given to several persons in succession. I reproduce below some passages from these significant letters in order to show how the mind of this great sufi functioned. He was the leading light of the Naqshbandi sufi silsila, and the foremost disciple of Khwaja Baqi Billah who brought this silsila to India in the reign of Akbar. I may add that the Prophet appeared quite frequently to both Baqi Billah and Ahmad Sirhindi in their dreams or states of trance, and gave guidance to them.

Some of his statements translated from the original Urdu script have been reproduced below:

"It is said that the Sharia prospers under the "shadow of the sword" (al-Shara' tahat al-sait). And the glory of the holy Sharia depends on the kings of Islam."

"Islam and infidelity (kufr) contradict one another. To establish the one means eradicating the other, the coming together of these contradictories being impossible. Therefore, Allah has commanded his Prophet to wage war (jihad) against the infidels, and be harsh with them. The glory is Islam consists in the humiliation and degradation of infidels and infidelity. He, who honours the infidels, insults Islam. Honouring (the infidels) does not mean that they are accorded dignity, and made to sit in high places. It means allowing them to be in our company, to sit with them, and talk to them. They should be kept away like dogs. If there is some worldly purpose or work which depends upon them, and cannot be served without their help, they may be contacted while keeping in mind all the time that they are not worthy of respect. The best course according to Islam is that they should not be contacted even for worldly purposes. Allah has proclaimed in his Holy Word (Quran) that they are his and his Prophet's enemies. And mixing with these enemies of Allah and his Prophet or showing affection for them, is one of the greatest crimes."

"The abolition of jizyah in Hindustan is a result of friendship, which (Hindus) have acquired with the rulers of this land... What right had the rulers to stop exacting jizyah? Allah himself has commended imposition of jizyah for their (infidels) humiliation and degradation. What is required is their disgrace, and the prestige and power of Muslims. The slaughter of non-Muslims means gain for Islam. To consult them (the kafirs) and then act according to their advice means honouring the enemies (of Islam), which is strictly forbidden."

"The prayer (goodwill) of these enemies of Islam is false and fruitless. It should never be called for because it can only add to their numbers. If the infidels pray, they will surely seek the intercession of their idols, which is taking things too far. A wise man has said that unless you become a dewanah (crazy) you cannot attain Islam. The state of this mania means going beyond considerations of profit and loss. Whatever one gains in the service of Islam should suffice..."

"Ram and Krishan whom Hindus worship are insignificant creatures, and have been begotten by their parents... Ram could not protect his wife whom Ravan took away by force. How can he help others? It is thousands of times shameful that some people should think of Ram and Krishan as rulers of all the worlds. To think that Ram and Rahman are the same, is extremely foolish. The creator and the creature can never be one... The controller of the Cosmos was never called Ram and Krishan before, the latter were born. What has happened after their birth that they have come to be equated with Allah, and the worship of Ram and Krishan is described as the worship of Allah? May Allah save us!"

"Our prophets who number one hundred and twenty four thousand have encouraged the created ones to worship the Creator. The gods of the Hindus (on the other hand) have encouraged the people to worship them (the gods) instead. They are themselves misguided, and are leading others astray. See, how the (two) ways are different!"

"Before that kafir (Guru Arjun Dev) was executed, this recluse (meaning himself) had seen in a dream that the reigning king had smashed the skull of idolatry. Indeed, he was a great idolater, and the leader of the idolaters, and the chief of unbelievers. May Allah blast him! The Holy Prophet who is the ruler of religion as well as the world, has cursed the idolaters as follows in some of his prayers - "O Allah, demean their society, create divisions in their ranks, destroy their homes, and get at them like the mighty one."

"It is required by religion (Islam) that jihad should be waged against the unbelievers, and that they should be dealt with harshly. It is obligatory on Muslims to acquaint the king of Islam with the evil customs of false religions. Maybe the king has no knowledge of these evil customs. Some Ulama of Islam should come forward, and proclaim the evils present in their (unbelievers') ways... It will be no excuse or, the Day of Judgment that they did not proclaim the tenets of the Sharia because they were not called upon (to do so)."

"Therefore, it is necessary that infidelity should be cursed in order to serve the faith (Islam). Cursing unbelief in the heart is the lesser way. The greater way is to curse it in the heart as well as with the body. In short, cursing means to nourish enmity towards enemies of the true faith, whether that enmity is harboured in the heart when there is fear of injury from them (infidels), or it is harboured in the heart as well as served with the body when there is no fear of injury from them. In the opinion of this recluse, there is no greater way to obtain the blessings of Allah than to curse the enemies of the faith (be impatient with them). For Allah himself harbours enmity towards the infidels and infidelity..."

"Once I went to visit a sick man who was close to death. When I meditated on him, I saw that his heart was layered with darkness. I intended to remove those darkness. But he was not yet ready for it... When I meditated more deeply, I discovered that that darkness had gathered due to his friendship with the infidels. They could not be dispersed easily. He had to suffer torments of hell before he could get purged of them."

"Every person cherishes some longing in his heart. The only longing which this recluse (meaning himself) cherishes is that the enemies of Allah and his Prophet should be roughed up. The accursed ones should be humiliated, and their false gods disgraced and defiled. I know that Allah likes and loves no other act more than this. That is why I have been encouraging you again and again to act in this way. Now that you have yourself arrived at that place, and have been appointed to defile and insult that dirty spot and its inhabitants, I feel grateful for this grace (from Allah). There are many who go to this place for pilgrimage. Allah in his kindness has not inflicted this punishment on us. After giving thanks to Allah, you should do your best to ruin that place and their false gods ... whether the idols are carved or uncarved. Let us hope that you will not act slow. Physical weakness and severity of the cold weather, comes in my way. Otherwise, I would have presented myself, and helped you in doing the job. I would have liked to participate in the ceremony and mutilate the stones."

This is short history of the love that Sufis has for the native Indians. With the advent of Wahabism in India more and more Muslims are abandoning the practice of going to the tombs of these Sufis and offering Fatiha to them. However the funding to these shrines continues as Hindus visit these tombs. In fact many of these tombs in India get more Hindu visitors than Muslim visitors. Needless to say large amounts of money are dolled out by the gullible non believers at these tombs. What exactly this money goes on to fund is anybody’s guess. However all I can say here is that : Viva Hindus keep it up!

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Ibrahim Lone is Kashmir-born ex-Muslim. He can be contacted at Ibrahim6661@gmail.com

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Name: Akshay
Date: Wednesday December 24, 2008
Time: 22:53:29 -0500

Comment

I am having second thoughts about visiting Ajmer Sharif after reading this article. Might as well skip the idea.

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Wednesday December 24, 2008
Time: 23:31:32 -0500

Comment

"Hinduism as practised in India today is not Vedic." Can you explain this if you do not mind? What do you think is Vedic?

Name: vbv
Date: Wednesday December 24, 2008
Time: 23:32:32 -0500

Comment

Well researched article . Sufis are missionery frauds like the evangelist christians who teach the natives to despise their own culture before converting them to their "faith". Sufis are islamic criminals with a smiling face and the mind of an assassin and a mafia killer. It is time that stupid gullible among the hindus realise this and stop supporting these graveyards of amorality called "darghas" for their own good, for with wahabism in ascendency these graveyards will crumble into dust very soon as it desrerves to be!

Name: continuum
Date: Wednesday December 24, 2008
Time: 23:33:37 -0500

Comment

That was an eye opening article on Sufis. I have seen many superstitious ignorant Hindus going and praying in Dargahs/tombs of muslims who have slaughtered their ancestors. What kind of a fool one has to be to do this ?

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Wednesday December 24, 2008
Time: 23:57:43 -0500

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"I count Hinduism as practiced today as NOT Vedic in spirit or essence" Ibrahim, Is this the statement you want to make ? Also please clarify why you think this is so ? I m just curious to know your thoughts on this subject. Will you please answer ?

Name: Re : Ibrahim Lone to continuum
Date: Wednesday December 24, 2008
Time: 23:58:55 -0500

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The Vedic civilization consisted of men who were spirited and gifted. They would defend their motherland at the peril of their lives. Those were the people who defended their beliefs and never trampled on the beliefs of others. They created mighty Hyms in the praise of their Lord. They were not Idol worshipping wretches, unlike the Hindus of today. They were not cultists who would run to near shop selling salvation. They had a spirit of rerom and research. I would advice you to read the History of the Aryans, the nobles to know who our ancestors were. They were self evassive people nor were they cowards. The Hinduism practised today is a sorry state of affairs. Infact even the word Hindusim is a migomer. Hindusim is derived from the word Hindu. What HIndu means is something I believe you are familiar with already. Our ancestors did sell their nations for self serving interests. I identify myself with those people, even though I am not a theist. If those nobles were to somehow time travel to the India that is today, they would somehow not recognize any of the practices. Moreoever most Hindus have turned their religion into a cult, and a comodity for sale. You people vilify your own civilization. I am not asking you to ride chariots, or live in the same places which our forefathers used to live in. There should be reform in a society, but should that reform be a step ahead or many steps backwards.

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 00:06:14 -0500

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"They were not Idol worshipping wretches, unlike the Hindus of today." Oohhhh...You seem to be real angry in your words. Now why do you think worshiping an idol makes one a wretch ? How do you know that Aryans were NOT idol worshiping wretches ? Honestly, I think you have some more deprogramming to do from your Islamic past. I am saying this NOT as an insult, just an honest opinion.

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 00:11:37 -0500

Comment

"The Vedic civilization consisted of men who were spirited and gifted. They would defend their motherland at the peril of their lives. Those were the people who defended their beliefs and never trampled on the beliefs of others." Yes, Hindus of today are weak and Aryas of those years were valiant people and NOT like today's Hindus. I completely agree 100% to this. What makes you think that Hindus today trample on other's belief ? Yes there are certain Hindus who react to attacks on their religion. But know that Hindus have lost their patience and react only when pressured beyond limits. You pick up any incident there is always the opposing party who forced Hindus to act that way.

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 00:17:09 -0500

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"They were not cultists who would run to near shop selling salvation. They had a spirit of rerom and research. I would advice you to read the History of the Aryans, the nobles to know who our ancestors were." Probably you are talking about some so called Gurus making money out of Yoga and such. What can I say ? I do not every ancient Indian in those days was an "Arya", i.e. noble man. You are right about this anyway. Do you have any particular group in mind when you say this ?

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 00:26:02 -0500

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"Infact even the word Hindusim is a migomer. Hindusim is derived from the word Hindu. What HIndu means is something I believe you are familiar with already. Our ancestors did sell their nations for self serving interests. I identify myself with those people, even though I am not a theist." I think you mean to say "Our ancestors did NOT sell their nations for self serving interests.". You are right here as well. Majority of Hindus have become fools, superstitious idiots who accept anything including worshiping their ancestor murderers, corrupt politicians who sell their lands and even their mothers for money. However, if you see all these politicians, they are mostly atheists and do not believe in Hinduism (Vedic or otherwise). Besides there is honestly confusion even among scholars as to what constitutes Vedic teachings. Names are unimportant(You say Hinduism is a misnomer, it is NOT a misnomer, it is merely a foreign name to this religion). You are right about the statement that Hindus need to take a step forward now. Past is past and Science must/will play an important role in this society, while most definitely taking positive teachings of Vedas from selfless service, courage, bravery and its moral teachings to philosophical rigor in life.

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 00:49:12 -0500

Comment

Something on "Murti Puja" in Hinduism.

Name: RE: Continum from IL
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 01:43:51 -0500

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Sorry brother that was major typo. Thanks for correcting me. "Now Idol worship has lost its significance. Idolatory is something that induces clanish and tribal behaviour". The kind of time that is spent in worshipping idols can be used for fruitful purposes like pursuing research, nation building,etc. Do you know that a great Philosopher of Kashmir was an atheist and yet he was able to write volumes of tretises on astronomy. These tretises were based purey on mathematical calculations. This man did not believe in a God or the God or Gods. He was a proponant of a school of though whose's name i cannot remeber right now. This is what I waht today's Muslims to become. The first step is to abandon Islam. Enlightenment will follow on its own. However Hindusim today in India has various sects. These sects are very powerful and hold sway over millions of Hindu minds. Any person who follows a cult cannot call himself enlightened or liberated. I accept that most Muslims are following a cult whose's leader was none other than Muhamad. But what are the Hindus of today doing? They are following cult leaders like Asha Ram Bapu, Radha Somi, Nirankari, etc. These cults are not vedic, they dont teach from the Vedas. They are a bunch of ignorants offering salvation to masses of guillable people on a platter. Hence many Hindus are no less guilty of being Cultists. I remeber recently when a cult leader from Haryana, was found guilty of rape and murder, his supporters came out in droves and protested voilently. Therefore name calling Muslims alone does not help. One has to check his own backyard for the garbage and throw it out. I dont want to hurt you, friend, you are an enligtened person, not all Hindus are. PS: I will check out that site later.

Name: continuum
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 02:58:02 -0500

Comment

Clanish tribal behavior...very right on this in some cases. Obviously descendants of Aryas have become hinas/fools largely. I am not excluding myself compared to them. Please do not take that I am insulting atheists. Atheists in those days were quite intelligent as the theists of those days. I guess any civilization has its up and downs. "Idol worship" is a very intensive meditative process carried out by people who are devoted to spiritual life only. It is NOT meant for everybody. For normal people I would prefer they study science, whatever field, and participate in nation building process as you say. What can I say about people who follow blindly a person like Sai baba as God or others leaders who are rapists etc. I am not talking about muslims only. I have stated clearly before that most Hindus are superstitious fools. This is a problem in Indian society now. The only solution is Scientific education. As more and more people study in secular schools and are taught scientific principles this will disappear, hopefully. I am not against constructive criticism, but I am against people who demonize Hindus only because they worship idols etc. which is largely based on semitic ideologies to destroy other cultures. That was my point.

Name: continuum
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 02:59:33 -0500

Comment

When said "Atheists in those days were quite intelligent as the theists of those days.", I am referring to the likes of Karunanaidhi, and such useless politicians in India..

Name: MA Khan ---->> continuum
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 05:12:29 -0500

Comment

Dear continuum, we appreciate your thoughtful inputs in our forum. But may I request you to make your comments brief, preferrably in a single post. Commenting like you have done in this post gives an impression that this a single person's "play ground".

Name: i agree with li-ji...i think religion is a real waste of time
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 06:18:04 -0500

Comment

i agree with il-ji,i think religion is a real waste of time,no god-allah created universe or man,universe and man r both evoled by nature over billions of years.if u must worship nature=energy=shakti=prakruti in all her glory.all religion r man created.

Name: RE:continuum from Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 09:05:17 -0500

Comment

Continum, you said that I have yet to fully rid myself rid of my former Islamic self. I really don't understand what you mean by that? Had I not lost touch with my Islaminess, I would not have been writing what I am, now would I. There are people other than Muslims, who don't like Idol worship. I don't just mean the people following Semitic religions, but people of all hues, including Hindus. Arya Samaj was formed for this very reason, to rid people of unnecessary superstitions and Idolatry. I did not say that idolatry is some kind of sin, what I said was that it is a waste of time. Just like going for Salah is a waste of time. Since I have an Islamic background you preferred to take a cheap shot at me, no that you have hurt me in any way. Let me make one thing very clear to you there is no way that I am embarrassed of being born in a Muslim family. However you seem to be riddled about the nuances of your own religion's past. I don't call myself a scholar because I like being a student. Now you accused me of a lot of things specifically because I choose to target Hinduism as practiced to day in India, I understand. However it would be better if you read a few books on the History of the Aryans and their religious practices. It is possible that I might be wrong as my research in Hinduism is not much, as it did not interest me a bit until recently. Not that it interests me now. One more thing, you have no right to call Muslims stupid when large number of you coreligionists are themselves cultists and highly gullible. If you want me to expose the cultists in Hinduism, I would be more than glad to do so. The only reason why I have not done so till now, because I did not wish to hurt the sensibilities of those Hindus who are able to see the flaws in their own belief system. I just hope that MA is true to his word and publishes my articles on cultists in Hinduism.

Name: To Continum
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 09:16:11 -0500

Comment

I apologise to MA for re posting, however it was necessary to drive the penny home and hence this addition. You said that all Indian politicians are atheist. How do you know that they are atheists? Karunanidhi is not an atheist, he just pretends to be one. Moreover Karunanidhi is a bigoted, racist fool who believes that the state of Tamil Nadu is only for the Tamils. He is no less a fool than those who believe that the Arabs are the best of people. So please don't compare Atheism to Communism or other philosophies. Atheism is simply a denial of the existence of God. The editors of Islam Watch as well as Ali Sina are atheists. Hence I think you should not have such hate towards atheist or atheism. It shows that you are mentally an infant and yet to really understand that there have been atheists who have been great thinkers, scientists, scholars, artists. All atheists are not exactly Hindu haters and communists.

Name: Rama
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 09:31:42 -0500

Comment

Sufis are wolves disguised as sheeps. I remember a newsarticle i read a while back about sufis in Africa. In the past the sufis were succesfull in converting a bunch of africans to Islam. After a few generations passed and the africans grew accostumed to the fact that they were muslims the wahabis came in to teach and brainwash them in the true form of islam. The sufi form of islam was used as a kind of 'friendly' introduction into islam.

Name: RAM, COW, KRISHNA, STONE IS BETTER THAN ALLAH !!!!!
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 11:53:39 -0500

Comment

RAM,COW,KRISHNA,STONE IS BETTER THAN ALLAH !!!!! EVEN SHIVA LINGAM-SHIVA PENIS AND YONI-VAGINA IS BETETR THAN ALLAH.sorry for bold letters.ALLAH IS NITHER MATTER,NOR ENERGY.IE ALLAH IS IMAGINARY. WHO IS THE REAL TRUE GOD ? WE R EVOLED BY ENERGY=NATURE=SHAKTI=PRAKRUTI=KUDRAT FROM 1 CELLED ORGANISMS,AND ENERGY AND MATTER R INTERLINKED AS PROVEN BY ENISTINE'S EQUATION E=MC-SQUARED[2].ENERGY=MASS X VELOCITY OF LIGHT SQUARED.SO WIRSHIP THE ONE WITH ALL FORMS=NATURE OR STONE IS STILL WORSHIP OF TRUTH=NATURE.AS AGAINST THIS ALLAH IS IMAGINARY AND NON EXISTANT---ALLAH CREATED IBLIS-SATAN AND THEN HE CANT KILL HIS OWN ENEMY.BUT RAM KILLED RAVAN TOOK REVENGE AND SAVED SITA.IT MEANS RAM IS REAL HERO AND ALLAH IMAGINARY ARAB DEITY IS REAL LOOSER.SO DONT COMPARE RAM TO ALLAH,BCOZ RAM IS HERO,ALLAH IS IMAGINARY.SAME FOR KRISHNA,COW,SHIVA PENIS-LINGAM ETC...

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 14:17:36 -0500

Comment

Dear Ibrahim, I am NOT taking cheap shot at you just because you were a muslim. Infact Arya Samaj, Barhmo Samaj etc. were influenced by Semitic religions and that is why you find them making comments against "Murti Puja". Show me one work previous to Islamic influences in India which makes derogatory reference to "Murti Puja". That should tell you a lot about AS and BS. You are free to have your opinion that this practice in Hinduism is superstitious etc. However, the process in Hinduism is older than Arya Samaj or Brahma Samaj etc. To me it makes sense, if you think that there is more to existence than merely matter. I have my reasons for this thinking which is another subject. There are many meditative processes within Hinduism. Deity worship in one of them along with different Yogic processes and Yajnas, which are all meditative processes. I do not think this is a problem fundamentally, only people need to think beyond their narrow view points. I still think all points against "Murti Puja" is a direct result of semitic religion influence. You will find no eastern religions from Japan to India ever making derogatory reference to this practice. Please think through it.

Name: continuum to Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 14:27:37 -0500

Comment

I apologize again to MA for double post. Again Mr. Lone, you misunderstand my point. I am NOT making derogatory remarks against atheism or even all atheists. I DO NOT hate atheists. I am just making a point that fools come from all quarters, from atheists to theists. Karunanidhi is indeed an atheist and so are many of his party members. Infact if you read thehistory of Dravida parties you will know that all these parties started with one principle, that of atheism. Check the works of Periyar who started this party first. This guy is number one scoundrel who married 20 year old girl when he was 70 years old and Periyar is an atheist. Thereafter the party split into two based on this issue as Periyar tried to make this party family property. Thereafter there were good atheists such as Anna Durai, who had a vision for Tamil nadu, and then came the likes of of Karunanidhi who are murderers and thieves and he has an atheist rapist son too. His name is Stalin. I think you get my point now. Fools and evil people come from atheists too, just as coreligionists of all kinds. I am most definitely NOT blaming atheism for this, just as "Murti Puja" need NOT necessarily be the cause for all problems in Indian society.

Name: Sunny, To: Mr. Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 14:56:52 -0500

Comment

I agree with you that just like every religion, Hinduism also has drawbacks. But being an oldest religion on earth, it does need reforms. Whatever the case may be, I still am proud of my religion who is a non-violent, kind, and believes in peaceful co-existence with other religions. Hinduism as a whole has a lot to offer than two other religions. And the best thing is, it does not thrust it's ideology forcibly upon others.

Name: RE:continuum from Ibrahim Lone
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 22:06:36 -0500

Comment

I would love to continue this line of debate, however I rather no consume more space in this forum. IF you are really interested in discussing this point, I would love to hear from you. You can Email me on my mail ID if you wish.

Name: Mr Ibrahim Lone is correct, Indias culture has great vedic past
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 22:53:37 -0500

Comment

Mr ibrahim lone is correct in saying that indias past is vedic. Infact you can do google search by title Scientific verification of Vedas.As per vedas correct form of worship is doing agnihotra (not animal sacrifice)/yajen and doing astanga yoga(called raja yoga or royal path of yoga), adopting preach of vedas in life like ahinsa, truth, aparigrah. Lord Rama as described by sage valmiki was a vedanisht and samadhist yogi.Both rama and krishna had their gurus as great yogis (one who realises god in samadhi), both of them studied vedas in gurukuls.Lord Krishna in Gita has said among vedas i am samveda( this veda tells how one can achieve God, the path of yoga etc). sage patanjali approx 5000 years back wrote patanjali yoga sutras based on vedas.This sutra tells and highlights how every human being can realise God and become like rama and krishna.Every yogi is bestowed with eight siddhis and eight vibhutis once he realises god.As per vedas god can not be measured.Whomsoever we worship today is a yogi.Lord shiva is the king of yogis, always beseated in padmasana and in samadhi.Brahma was the first one to get this knowledge of vedas from aadtiya, agni,angira and vaayu rishi.Infact instead of blaming others read wetern authore, indian yogis biography.First read this classic Autobiography of yogi by paramhans yogananda.It is available online at www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/.Accusing others will not help us we have to introspect ourselves.Please read Swami rama by paul brutton.Infact all westerners have done and are doing lot of research on vedas, yogic science.You can read the lives of great siddha yogis of our time Sai baba, swami nityananda of ganeshpuri, swami sammartah, Gajanana maharaj of shegaon, Lord swaminarayan, lahiri mahashyay.further if you are intreseted read what swami dayanand saraswati has said.All upnishads talk of formless god and rishis in their commentries have said the source of origin to be veda.Further to ascertain truth do astanga yoga and see wonderful results.

Name: seeker
Date: Friday December 26, 2008
Time: 03:56:18 -0500

Comment

Ibrahim,I highly appreciate your knowledge about Hinduism and look forward to your aricles.However since you have not grown up as a Hindu,there are certain things for you which will be hard to comprehend.Idol worship is something which comes naturally to the Hindus.Let me explain.The common people of yore could not comprehend the high sounding philosophy of the Vedas which was authored by the sages who lived an ascetic life in seclusion.Gods had to be invented to satisfy the spiritual yearnings of the common man.The idol and ceremonies became the centre of devotion which reminded the devotee of the Lord and focus his attention.The Buddha was againts this practice but his followers began to worship his statues!!Though your knowledge about the Vedas is sound,I suggest you read the works of Swami Vivekananda,a great proponent of the Vedas to know more on this subject.Only the Arya Samaj discourages this tradition.Have you thought about religios symbols, idols, of other religions?

Name: vbv
Date: Friday December 26, 2008
Time: 05:25:21 -0500

Comment

I tend to agree with the contention that hinduism of today cannot hold a candle to the rishis of Vedas and Upanishads ,who were free thinkers ,skeptrics, believed in free inquiry, freedom of thought , against oppression from dogmas ,unlike the semetic cults of Islam, Christianity or judaism which view others (non-semetic cult-believers) as infidels, pagans, heathens, etc in utter contempt by proclaiming that their way is the only way of salvation or to a lewd" heaven" or else it is eternal torment in "helfire". All semetic cults brainwash their adherents making them zombies, intolerant ,given to violent reaction at the slightest hint of "blaspheme" or "heresy". You find the concept of 'blaspheme' or 'heresy' only in the rotten monotheistic cults from the West Asia emanating from the jews and the arabs. What is this monotheistic 'GOD'? JUST A TYRANT,A BLOODTHIRSTY RTYRANT WREAKING REVENGE AT THE SLIGHTEST PRETEXT, EXPECTING HIS FOLLOWERS TO BE ZOMBIFIED TO THE EXTENT OF ABJECT SLAVERY IN THE HANDS OF HIS EARTHLY REPRESENTATIVES LIKE MULLAHS, IMAMS, PADRES, POPES, BISHOPS, ETC. AND YET HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE "MERCIFUL". RIDICULOUS AIN'T IT? WHOEVER HEARD OF A TYRANT WEARING A MERCIFUL 'HEART'. MONOTHEISM ONLY SPREADS THE DISEASE OF INTOLERANCE - IT IS ANI-DEMOCRATIC, INHUMAN, AMORAL AND BARBARIC. POLYHTEISM IS DEMOCRATIC, GIVES FREEDOM OF CHOICE TO BELIEVE OR DISBELIEVE. THERE IS NO THREAT OF DEATH OR VIOLENCE FOR "HERESY" OR "BLASPHEME". YOU CAN QUESTION ANYTHING WITH AN OPEN MIND AND EVEN CRITICISE IT IF YOU DON'T AGREE. NOBODY IS GOING TO KILL YUOU FOR IT . IN INDIA NOT ONLY BUDHISM AND JAINISM WERE SUPPOSED TO BE HERETICAL BUT ALSO THE LESSER KNOWN ATHEISTS AND MATERIALISTS CALLED CHARAVAKAS WHO WERE CONTEMPORY TO THE VEDIC RISHIS. EVEN THE PHILOSOPHICAL SYTEMS OF SAMKHYA IS MATERIALISTIC AND AGNOSTIC. THE ADVAITA PHILOSOPHY SAYS THAT IN THE ULTIMATE TRUTH GOD AND BEING ARE ONE AND GOD PER SE DOES NOT EXIST! SO I AM PROUD TO BE HINDU WITH ABSOLUTE FREEDOM OF THOUGHT.

Name: ganapathy
Date: Friday December 26, 2008
Time: 08:34:16 -0500

Comment

to,IL & continuum the discussion is very interesting and may i add this. hinduism is a process of evolution of humans. sankara who gave advaitha has also sung numerous hymns about various deities. so idol worship is for humans in a particular stage or phase one may have to go thru in the process of evolution

Name: few questions which i request you to clarify
Date: Friday December 26, 2008
Time: 10:48:56 -0500

Comment

Dear mr lone & mr khan, could you please tell how many sects are there in islam shia,sunni,dawoodis,bahais etc. What is the difference between them? further does jews and parsis are same? In addition i would request you to write and enlighten on history of tajmahal with proofs. Mr stephen Knapp has written in his website about its history but could you further supplement it with your analysis and records of muslim writers.I would like to add that idol worship is not propogated in vedas. But many saints have achieved same level of enlightment as by achieved by astanga yoga, it is called as bhakti yoga. Infact lord krishna has said in Geetas four ways to realise God Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga, Gyan Yoga and astanga yoga, He is referred as yogeshwar means one who has realised God in samadhi.A yogi is a living form of God and in his state of Samadhi he says as if he is God( refer himself as i).Further yogis never lie. Notable amongst them are neem karoli baba, a worshipper of hanuman , has all the asta siddhis, Meera bai, raidas etc.As energy is neither created nor destroyed, so a soul is neither created nor destroyed.Even after realisation as per its wish it resides in sukshm sharir.So when we remember these great yogis / worship them depending on our devotion, piousness and karmas they bless us and manifest astrally. A yogi can astrally construct its body after salvation this is best explained in autobiography of yogi by paramhansa yogananada. Many yogis have explained this phenomenon.Yogis are not bound by law of cause and effect unlike ordinary mortal like us.

Name: Nemo
Date: Saturday December 27, 2008
Time: 01:50:06 -0500

Comment

Ganapathi states : 'hinduism is a process of evolution of humans. so idol worship is for humans in a particular stage or phase one may have to go thru in the process of evolution'....................................Congratulations Ganapathy..........................Confidently and calmly put, Succinct and to the point, uncompetative, unthreatening, accurate. Hinduism has been likened to the Ganga, where toddlers may safely wade on its edges yet the greatest of divers may not plumb its depths, there is some depth to suit all capabilities of comprehension; from Murti Puja to atheism, and all stages in between...................all the verbose commenters will surely find their appropriate depth if they are prepared to abandon the egotistical stance that "my religion is better then your's"

Name: DH
Date: Saturday December 27, 2008
Time: 07:33:21 -0500

Comment

While in England recently I recall a news item on the BBC or other channel stating that the majority of Muslims of Indian origin subscribe to some undifferentiated "Sufi Islam" - as if this automatically made them nice, fluffy, spiritual folk who rejected everything al-Qaeda stands for. It is pathetic how these people do not wish to face facts about Islam. If sharia ever got imposed lock, stock and barrel in england these poor, self-deluding saps would find the "spiritual" sufis to be in the front of the queue for public displays of flogging, stoning, chopping hands and heads.

Name: AKR
Date: Monday December 29, 2008
Time: 02:09:20 -0500

Comment

This is a true story and the unfortunate thing is that our people are not ready to accept the facts. This way they are far from realising the true nature of Islam and the onslaught of the maradaurs in the holy land on peaceful Indians. I am sure Lone will bring forth more such facts for us. I will be happy if the writing on the wall is communicated to the Indian press who are complacent with the falshood that Islam can exist in peace with other religions.

Name: Don't agree.
Date: Tuesday December 30, 2008
Time: 08:52:42 -0500

Comment

Idol worship is not clannish or tribal behavior. Hinduism believes in the fact that people are born according to the merit or demerit accumulated in their previous births resulting from their deeds. It also believes that the ultimate goal of a soul is self-realization and union with the Supreme. There are various paths to achieve this goal. One of the goals is Bhakti (devotion to god) and Bhakti at its initial stage is idol worship. Hinduism recognizes that a ordinary Hindu needs a focal point or worship and the idol provides that. As he progresses to achieve the goal of self-realization and realization of the supreme, he need not worship an idol anymore as he is now at a greater level of understanding. If you see, there is idolatry in every religion (Muslims circumambulating the Kaaba or the idol of Jesus and the Mother in Churches. In Hinduism, it is more because it is a part of everyday life to achieve a greater goal. That is why the great saints or sanyasins in Hinduism do not do idol worship as they are already enlightened. Idol worship per se is not bad but what is bad is the commercialization of it. As we all know, the cure for a headache is not cutting of the head.

Name: Hari Padmanabhan
Date: Tuesday December 30, 2008
Time: 13:19:30 -0500

Comment

Could it be that the influence of Islam and Christianity corrupted the ancient Vedic religion to such a level that we find blind faith instead of intelligent faith among the Hindus? Surely the two Abrahamic cult belief systems must have negatively impacted the indigenous religious traditions to a large extent.

Name: marwari
Date: Thursday January 01, 2009
Time: 10:37:43 -0500

Comment

please dont tell that our lord shiva lingam is male penis /or our mother parvati yoni as vagina /the shiva lingam is the basic level of faith of hindus /kindly dont hurt us

Name: marwari
Date: Thursday January 01, 2009
Time: 10:39:41 -0500

Comment

mamatwa ka prateek hai shivalinga

Name: RE:marwari
Date: Thursday January 08, 2009
Time: 05:13:08 -0500

Comment

No Marwari we are not saying any of that, however are you aware that Muslims worship pussies in Mecca. That black stone actually has a big pussy carved in it which is coated with silver. Can you believe it that Muslims sell their daughters to rich sheiks so that they can go and kiss the black vagina in Mecca. Unbelieveable isn't it.

 

 
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