Beating Women in Islam
08 Feb, 2008
- Now, I do not know about you, but I certainly do not have a natural instinct of “domination and aggression”. I am sure some people do, but, to my frustration, my wife told me the bad news that I really do not have such aggression tendencies. In any case, let us follow the perfect law Allah decreed and bestowed upon us, men, to control our temper and help us with our physical aggression. According to the article, the divine solution is in this verse from, what else, the Qur’an. I am quoting verbatim from that article:
[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.
Here is the same verse as presented in the three reliable translations of the Qur’an. I am putting them down here because there are some slight differences between them and the above translation:
004.034
YUSUF ALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
The article I am discussing does say that the above verse is abused by men in reality. The fact of the matter is that a devout man will never lay a hand on his wife. Here is a quote from that article:
In reality, a believing husband would most probably NEVER come to the stage where he would actually lay a hand on his wife. He would be much too careful to examine his own motives first, as a God fearing man, before exercising this right. As we see in the verse immediately following 4:34, when the marriage reaches this stage it's on it's way to end, as the very next words in the Quran reads; "If a couple fears separation…"
So far, so good. There are three criticisms that come to mind here. I think all are valid and necessitate rejection of the above verse:
1. A man and a woman are equals in marriage. Assuming that men are maintainers of women is just rubbish that came to us from a 1400 year old book that tried to teach people how to live back then.
2. Another substantial criticism to the above verse is that it clearly allows a man to beat up a woman. Regardless of the circumstances that allow a man to beat a woman, and regardless of how “gentle” that beating may be, the fact that the Qur’an allows in principle beating up a woman is a cause to reject at least one verse of the Qur’an.
3. I do know Arabic, and when I read verse 34 above in Arabic, I do not see but the word “beat them”. There is no (Lightly) or (as a last alternative). It just says “beat them”. Translators just try to sugar coat another evil verse in the Qur’an.
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Ibn Kamuna also contributes at faithfreedom.org. He can be contacted at
ibnkammuna@aol.com.
Name: Igor the Unbeaten
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 11:14:24 -0700
Comment
What if Khadija or even Aisha had gotten the "revelations" from GOD instead of Mohammad? Would 4:34 give permission to wives to beat their "rebellious" husbands, or to castrate them if they were ever caught cheating? What does it mean to be a "rebellious" wife, anyway? Does it include not wanting to have sex because of a headache? I suppose that the faithful Muslim husband could beat her until she let him basically rape her. Of course, once she "obeyed," he could not "transgress" against her by beating her DURING and AFTER sex! That would be un-Islamic!
Name: Z-u-K
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 12:29:47 -0700
Comment
Violations of 'Islamic teachings' take deadly toll on Iraqi women ---------------- http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/08/iraq.women/index.html
Name: Igor
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 13:39:52 -0700
Comment
From Z-u-K's linked article, "Boldly splattered in red paint just outside the main downtown market, a chilling sign reads: 'We warn against not wearing a headscarf and wearing makeup. Those who do not abide by this will be punished. God is our witness, we have notified you.'"...Yes, God is your witness that you and your pure buddies are mindless zombies who should probably have your eyes gouged out. That way you would never again be stoked to murderous outrage by the mere sight of headscarves and makeup!
Name: OVER 4 MILLION WOMEN BEATON IN USA IN A YEAR!!!
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 14:41:29 -0700
Comment
LOOK AT YOURSELF FIRST BEFORE YOU LIFT YOUR FINGER. Understanding Domestic Violence Factoids According to the FBI, A Woman is Beaten Every 15 SECONDS First, the FBI does not calculate, tabulate, or track data on domestic violence. The FBI once did estimate that a women is beaten every 15 seconds, but they derived this estimate from Murray Straus, Richard J. Gelles, and Suzanne K. Steinmetz's book, Behind Closed Doors: Violence in the American Family. Various other fact sheets list various other number of seconds. The number of seconds depends on the study (if there actually was one) and how violence was defined. For example, some versions of this factoid state that a women is beaten every 9 seconds and cite a study done by the Commonwealth Fund in July, 1993. The Commonwealth Fund study used the same measure as was used by Straus and his colleagues. Unlike Straus and his colleagues who defined "abuse" as acts of violence that were likely to cause and injury, the Commonwealth Fund defined "abuse" as every thing from pushing, shoving, and slapping to using a gun or knife. There Are Four Million Women Beaten and Abused Each Year Same problems as above. The Straus, Gelles, and Steinmetz survey estimated that 2 million women were abused each year by their husbands. Straus and his colleagues speculated that if all the respondents told the truth and if ex-husbands and boyfriends were included, the number could be as high as 4 million. However, no study to date using a representative sample and measuring severe violence, has found more than 2 million abused women each year. Domestic Violence is the Leading Cause of Injury to Women Between the Ages of 15 and 44 in the United States - More Than Car Accidents, Muggings, and Rapes Combined This factoid has been attributed to both Surgeon General Antonia Novello and the Centers for Disease Control. The actual primary source of this "fact" is research by Evan Stark and Ann Flitcraft. It was probably Stark and Flitcraft who supplied the fact to CDC, who then included it in material supplied to the Surgeon General. Unfortunately, as good a sound bite as this is, it is simply not true. The original source of this statement goes back to two papers by Stark and Flitcraft. First, the actual research the "fact" is based on is a rather small survey of one emergency room. Second, in the original articles, they said that domestic violence may (emphasis added) be a more common cause of emergency room visits than car accidents, muggings, and rapes combined. Linda Saltzman from the Centers for Disease Control tells all journalists who call to check this fact that the CDC does not recognize this as either their fact or a reputable fact. The March of Dimes Reports that Batterering During Pregnancy is the Leading Cause of Birth Defects and Infant Mortality The March of Dimes actually reports that they know of no such study. Sixty-three Percent of Young Men Between the Ages of 11 and 20 Who Are Serving Time for Homicide Have Killed Their Mother's Abuser This factoid is often used by Sarah Buel in her speeches. It appears to be yet another fact from nowhere. The FBI has published no data that supports this claim. The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports has no tables that report on prison populations, let alone a table or figure that breaks down prison populations by age of offender and relationship to victim. There are no Department of Justice reports that report on what number or percentage of young men kill their mother's batterer. Family Violence has Killed More Women in the Last Five Years as the Total Number of Americans Who Were Killed in The Vietnam War This factoid was often used by Dr. Robert McAfee, past president of the American Medical Association. There were about 55,000 American casualties in the Viet Nam war. According to the FBI, Uniform Crime Statistics, about 1,500 women are killed by their husbands or boyfriends each year. The total number of women homicide victims each year is about 5,000. Thus, in 5 years, even if every women who was killed, was killed by a family member, the total would still be 1/2 the number of American casualties in Viet Nam. Women Who Leave Their Batterers Are at a 75% Greater Risk of Being Killed by the Batterer than Those Who Stay Women are more likely to be victims of homicide when they are estranged from their husbands than when they live with their husbands--BUT NOT A 75 % GREATER RISK. The risk of homicide is higher in the first two months after separation. SOURCE: Wilson, Margo and Martin Daly. (1993) "Spousal homicide risk and estrangement." Violence and Victims, 8, 3-16. Women Who Kill Their Batterers Receive Longer Prison Sentences than Men Who Kill Their Partners This factoid is often attributed to someone from Pace University. There is no actual published source for this. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, Violence Between Intimates (November, 1994), the average prison sentence for men who killed their wives was 17.5 years; the average sentence for women convicted of killing their husbands was 6.2 years. Factoids From the Right of Center Women are as Violence as are Men, and Women Initiate Violence as Often as do Men This factoid cites research by Murray Straus, Suzanne Steinmetz, and Richard Gelles, as well as a host of other self-report surveys. Those using this factoid tend to conveniently leave out the fact that Straus and his colleague's surveys as well as data collected from the National Crime Victimization Survey (Bureau of Justice Statistics) consistently find that no matter what the rate of violence or who initiates the violence, women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be injured in acts of intimate violence than are men. Other Factoids from Nowhere 4,000 Women Each Year are Killed by Their Husbands, Ex-husbands, or Boyfriends The FBI reports that approximately 1,500 women are killed each year by husbands or boyfriends. Even if one factors in the number of women killed by unidentified or undetermined assailants, the number could not be 4,000. Women of All Cultures, Races, Occupations, Income Levels, and Ages are Battered - by Husbands, Boyfriends, Lovers, and Partners While this fact is technically true, it is also true that domestic violence is more likely to occur in homes below the poverty line, in minority households (even controlling for income), and among men and women 18 to 30 years of age. Nationally, 50% of All Homeless Women and Children are on the Streets Because of Violence in the Home An interesting factoid stated by Senator Biden, but one without any actual published scientific research to support it. There are Nearly Three Times as Many Animal Shelters in the United States as There are Shelters for Battered Women and Their Children
Name: ALI
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 14:54:04 -0700
Comment
THERE IS MISTREATMENT OF WOMEN IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, BUT AFTER READING ABOVE ARTICLE,I HAVE TO POSE THIS QUESTAN,IS THIS THE PERFECT SOCIETY?,THE MOST RICHEST NATION AND THE SO CALLED CHAMPION OF PROTECTING THE WEAK ,IS THIS WHAT YOU DO YOURSELF, AND THEN YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO PUT UP ARTICLES BY THE RACIST IBN KAMANNU, MOHAMMAD GAVE YOU THE ANSWERS AND UPHELD AND GAVE THE DIGNITY TO THE WOMEN, OUR MOTHERS, SISTERS,DAUGHTERS AND WIVES THEY DESERVED, NO WONDER NEARLY 3OUT OF 4 CONVERTS IN THE WEST ARE WOMEN,MAY ALLAH GUIDE THOSE WHO SEEK GUIDENCE.
Name: Igor
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 15:14:42 -0700
Comment
Ali, are you comfortable with the thought that women should be treated like property? Do you believe that women should wear burqas, or can they wear makeup in public, and show their hair? Do you believe that women should be allowed to drive cars? Is so-called "honor killing" OK with you?
Name: Ibn Kammuna - To:Ali
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 17:47:53 -0700
Comment
To Ali Hello You can call me a racist if you want. I am really not, but you don't know me. You did not bother me anyway. Look, the article above has 3 claims. Prove me wrong, and I will post a retraction. Fair enough ! Calling me names won't answer the claims in my article. It will vent your anger, which is fine, but the problem is still there. There are 3 claims to be answered. Prove me wrong !
Name: Z-u-K
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 18:01:20 -0700
Comment
Ali, habibi, you seem to miss the point: In Western societies wife battering is qualified as a *crime* (or felony at least), and, whenever reported and proven in a court of law, *punished* as such. Under Islam, wife battering is *encouraged* and *justified* as a *didactical* measure of the supposedly better knowing husband. In both societies this crime is underreported: in Western societies, because of a well know "battered wife" sindrom and other concurrent circumstances; in Muslim countries, it is not reported at all, since it is considere the *Allah-protected right* of the husband to do so. Who would report the excercise of virtue? --------------- Finally, I am sadly aware that the concept that the FREEDOM to chose what to wear and where to go is not part of your idea of women's dignity. But it is time for you to understand that IT IS. You accept the Islamic benign patronizing (at the VERY VERY best!) of women as a pious act of protection - I have heard this argument many times from Muslims that honestly believed it. The truth is that this mindset just deprives women of their condition of INDIVIDUALS. And, to quote Cheb Khaled's wonderful hit on this subject, the song "Aisha": "Elle a dit, garde tes tresors / Moi, je vaux mieux que tout ca / Des barreaux sont des barreaux, meme en or / Je veux les memes droits que toi / Et du respect pour chaque jour / Moi je ne veux que de l'amour" {"She said: Guard your treasures. / Me, I am worth better than that, / Bars are bars, even out of gold. / I want the same rights as you / And respect every day. / I just want love."}
Name: Ibn Kammuna
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 19:12:40 -0700
Comment
Thank You Z-U-K Well Said !!
Name: Truth Seeker
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 19:50:00 -0700
Comment
In America women are beaten by their husbands. But it is not sanctioned by the American Constitution. On the other hand, the Islamic Constitution i.e. the Quran authorizes the Muslim men to beat their women. Do Muslims see a difference here and if there is one, then how dare they defend Allah's intruction to the Muslim men by bringing up what the American or the European men do to their women?
Name: Igor the Christian
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 20:25:34 -0700
Comment
Good point, Truth Seeker! In America, a man who beats his wife can be charged with assault and battery, For those who wonder how Christianity deals with issues between husbands and wives, please understand that nowhere in the New Testament is permission given for husbands to beat their wives for any reason, EVER. In short, Christianity is more enlightened than Islam on marital relations (and much else) It always has been. The problem is that Christianity has not been LIVED as Jesus intended it to be lived. That's why miserable substitutes like Islam have had a chance of prevailing against it.
Name: Mein Qu'rampf
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 21:11:19 -0700
Comment
In America women usually complain to the law enforcememt agencies when beaten by their husbands, expecting to be taken seriously, and the authorities keep statistics on such cases. It's farcical for a Muslim to claim moral superiority for Islamic (i.e. as far as human rights are concerned, backward) countries where neither are done or in a very cavalier and unsystematic manner.
Name: ISLAM TREATS WOMAN WORSE THAN CATTLE
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 22:53:58 -0700
Comment
Islam allows captured women/slave girls to be raped (33.50) (actually islam allows any muslim woman to be raped because woman needs four eyrwitnesses to prove a rape, which is impossible) it allows wives exchanged at will like cattle (4.20) allows underage girls married (65.4), allows wife beating(4.34) it allows men to divorce wives by proclaiming three times, it allows temporary wives (4.24), it calls woman man's tilth to be approached anyways (promoting sodomy a) allows incest (33.37). Go se how Talibans treat their woman under strict sharia laws. It is easy to defend islam living in infidel country and under the protection of ifidel laws. Women should go try living under sharia.
Name: kafir/infidel ( & Ex-communist ).
Date: Friday February 08, 2008
Time: 22:58:29 -0700
Comment
TO all MOSLEMS , followers of MO the pedo,rapist,murderer,slave master,slavery champion , ALLA's BOSS !!!! Why you write about USA? is it not biggest deception on your part ? present statistics - honestly from any ISLAMIC country. Firstly census, stastistics are prohibited in a pure ISLAMIC country. rapes,incest,homosexuality are rampant ,wide spread in Moslem countries, in Moslem societies. For example in INDIA the supreme court said that all marriages must be registered to aviod foul play,crime, violation of law. only Moslems are against this saying that it is against ISLAMIC law !!!!!! Even taking census is against ISLAMIC law. Registering of births is against ISLAMIC law - these Mullas say.......... In western countries beating of women is rare - may be 5 % . But beating in ISLAMIC societies is 96%. Actually it is wrong to even compare ISLAMISM with western societies. in USA - it is a law -a crime to beat wife- but in ISLAM it is ALLA/ MO sanctioned evil fatwa to beat, terrorize, instill fear in wife or any moslem woman. Which moslem woman is fearless,honest and frank? can a moslem woman live one minute if she talks against ISLAM/MO/MULLAs in a Moslem country ? NO. Moslems - shamelessly are using all the best progressive values of humanity ( openness,democracy,freedom,equality,liberty,secularism,equality of religions ,equality of women -are using to - even the statistics from western countries- to distort and lie. Present honest,truthful statistics from any ISLAMIC country.( which is not possible anyway). This is utter barbarism of ISLAMISTS and only ISLAMISTS are capable of this kind of low,ungreatful,inhuman value.
Name: FBI Report: Violence Against Women in America
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 00:15:10 -0700
Comment
"Three to four million American women are beaten each year by their present or former intimate partners. In fact, battery is the single greatest cause of serious injury to women - more than auto accidents, rapes, and muggings combined. Because domestic violence happens behind closed doors, many women who are beaten by their husbands or dates suffer in silence, sometimes for years, before seeking counseling or legal assistance." ... "More than a million women are stalked in the United States every year. According to the FBI, more than 90 percent of women who were killed by a husband or boyfriend in 1991 were stalked beforehand." ... "The FBI estimates that one rape is committed in this country every six minutes. And because so many rapes go unreported, many officials believe the true rate in the United States is at least twice this official rape count. The 1990 National Crime Survey estimates that of the known rapes, 58 percent were committed by someone the victim knew, including a spouse or boyfriend, and 35 percent took place in the victim's own home." Source: http://www.lwvnj.org/womensguide/violence.htm#domestic
Name: Igor
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 05:45:15 -0700
Comment
4.19: "Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will." This is an endorsement of SLAVERY, and suggests that women may be thought of as the PROPERTY of men. It was posted by "Women's Status and Rights in the Qur'an" who wants us all to know that Men and Women sre equal! HAH! He should have read what he posted first!...As for the FBI report, I don't doubt that much violence is committed against women in the US, but the difference is that in the US rape and assault are prosecuted as crimes, while in Muslim countries they are DIVINELY SANCTIONED, that is, if you believe the nonsense that the Qur'an is God's perfect gift to the human race.
Name: Igor
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 05:53:03 -0700
Comment
"The Men and Women are equal" poster also posted this: "...the Qur'an has ended so many injustices against women found in other scriptures." I'd like to read a list of these "injustices," chapter and verse, please, or perhaps the Qur'an defender is just making things up as he goes. A little taqiyya, anyone?
Name: Z-u-K
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 07:27:08 -0700
Comment
Mr. "Women's Status and Rights in the Qur'an": It doesn't matter how we, Western people, understand or are made to understand (by benevolent exegesis like yours) about Islam. What matters is how it is understood and practiced BY MUSLIMS, among MUSLIMS and in THEIR countries (and, to an increasing extent, in non-Muslim countries). THAT IS THE REALITY OF ISLAM, and that reality shows many aspects. I agree that not every single Muslim is a criminal zealot - my friends in XYZ (Gulf country) were too bussy caring about their families to bring to life every "humanitarian" precept of Muhammad's teaching, as cited by Igor. But you see.... the truth is that **the lack of knowledge and understanding of the true, ugly Islam that prevented these otherwise working and decent people from becoming fundamentaists is the SAME lack of knowledge and understanding that prevents them from LEAVING it for good**. As I came to experience myself, once you dig deep into Islam, there is no middle point: either you become a Wahabbi, or you reject this non-sense once and for all. ---------- So, my dear copy-and-paster, it is the PRACTICES to which the (complete or partial) understanding of Islam BY REAL LIFE MUSLIMS leads that concerns us. Think about it.
Name: Z-u-K
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 07:35:30 -0700
Comment
Another interesting aspect of "Women's Status and Rights in the Qur'an"-s post is that, if properly analyzed, it becomes clear that by "women" he (or his Qur'an) understands not "every human being of the female sex" but specifically "legal wifes or relatives" under Muslim male patronage. It is obvious that, as implied by Qur'an 4:19 and many other places, this "equality" does not apply... equally :( In other words, human rights (at least, women's rights) under Islam are NOT Universal. Therein lies an important difference between the secular soncept of human rights and the Islamic (and, in general, religion-based) approach to the matter: The moment that any right is accepted to be rightly bestowed upon a group of people on the basis of a theistic and/or scriptural claim, it can, on the same grounds, be rightly DENIED to other, in a God-sanctioned way. This "ours/theirs" morality is probably at the core of every religion, but in Islam it reaches a particularly dangerous intensity.
Name: Z-u-K
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 07:41:53 -0700
Comment
To Mr. "Infinite Copy-and-Paste Babbling - Now In Response To Igor": See my dear, again, it doesn't matter how the Muslim community sees Western religion(s) or interpret their scriptures, what matters is how they are understood and practiced by Western people! And the truth is that this fundamentalistic and archaic Old Testament statements are seen as metaphores and naturalistic explanations suiting a more ignorant, and rough, time of history. Modern Western religious people practice a much modern and abstract form of religion. We may or may not agree with these beliefs, but your narrow-minded reading of the Bible (or any other scripture, for once) doesn't change the fact that the moral standards of the West are inspired rather on the (essentially secular) ideas of democracy, respect for the differences and solidarity that on some old aramaic verses. But I am not sure you are able to grasp this nouanced difference.
Name: Igor to Women's Status in the Bible
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 07:49:32 -0700
Comment
As a courtesy to any Christians who may be reading your commentary, would you please recognize the distinction that Christians the world over recognize between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus? Yes, I know that you DENY that Jesus was even crucified -Mohammad dismissed this FACT as mere "conjecture"- but it would help your argument to at least humor those who are NOT bound by the Law of Moses and the Levitical decrees because they are CHRISTIANS and not JEWS. Do you GET IT?...
Name: Igor to Z-u-K
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 08:00:09 -0700
Comment
I have honestly wondered how Orthodox Jews deal with the more abrasive-to-modern-sensibilities passages from the Torah, and the fact that the Al Aqsa mosque now sets on the Temple's foundation must irk them to no end. The Levitical priesthood still exists, but with no Temple in which to offer sacrifice, how they must grieve! As for me, being a Christian, I see the purpose of the Temple as having been fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. The Temple was a type of what was to come, while Jesus was and remains the living embodiment, even referring to his own body as a temple that would be destroyed and rebuilt in three days. That is my belief, a belief that Islam completely mangles, ON PURPOSE.
Name: Igor to Women's Status in the Bible
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 08:10:38 -0700
Comment
The single most powerful passage from the New Testament regarding the relationshiip between husbands and wives, as I see it, is Ephesians - Chapter 5:25-33 25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26. to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27. and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church- 30. for we are members of his body. 31. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32. This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself..."
Name: Ephesians 5:33
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 08:17:29 -0700
Comment
"Wife must respect her husband." (Ephesians 5:33)
Name: Igor
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 08:24:13 -0700
Comment
Yes, 5:33, I meant to include that. It appears that the greater challenge falls on the men, at least as far as Paul was concerned. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church, and he gave his last drop of blood for the Church, while wives must merely "respect" their husbands!
Name: To: Z-u-K
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 08:26:24 -0700
Comment
When it comes to Quran, everything is literal; but when it comes to Bible, everything is metaphorical? Are you kidding? Pls tell us, what metaphor is there when Bible says: woman has no inheritance ... woman must not speak in church ... woman must cover her head ... honor killing ... and many more stuffs that have been listed in the above post?
Name: “The whole of a woman is genitalia."
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 08:44:15 -0700
Comment
Paul may have been a sexist, but he was nowhere near this! From: http://www.blogher.com/whole-woman-genitalia...A strange, Jewish women's cult has popped up in rural Israel. Israel has very remote separation of religion and state. As a citizen of Israel, I find women's issues very troubling, in regards to the religious community. Jewdism has a long history of covering up their women, but the majority of Israel has long forgotten religion's strict, by the book, implementation. However, the more religious minority keeps up these old traditions of overzealous separation of sexes. As if a man and women need protection from the natural instincts of lust. These warped opinions make it so I, a secular woman, cannot be seated next to a religious man, on the bus. This man would rather stand up, the whole hour and a half commute, than sit next to me, for fear of lust!.... The latest news, as I have read in Israel's Ha'Aretz, tells of a strange, Jewish women's cult that has popped up in rural Israel. This cult is led by a Rabanit (=A female Rabi. In Hebrew the term means a wife of a Rabi, and doesn't indicate the woman is a Rabi or schooler, herself), Bruria Keren, and abides by an extremely strict dress code of chastity, reminiscent of Muslim women. A religious woman must dress chastely, with shirt sleeves covering her elbows and a skirt down to her ankles. An extremely religious woman may sport a wig over her real hair, as her hair is “an instrument of seduction”. Keren's women must cover their faces completely, with a shawl. “The whole of a woman is genitalia. It is forbidden for a man, other than your husband to see you.”....YIKES!!!!
Name: OOPS!
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 08:45:11 -0700
Comment
Try this instead: http://www.blogher.com/whole-woman-genitalia
Name: Igor
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 10:59:25 -0700
Comment
Hey "SAUDI BRITAINIA!!!" Do you have a source for all of this edifying info that you've pasted?....Hmm, the U.S. gives $5 BILLION in aid every year to Israel. I wonder how many BILLIONS are given from the entire Arab world to help their struggling brothers and sisters in Palestine? It must not be enough, because the West Bank and Gaza remain models of incompetence and ruin...Speaking of land that the U.N. set aside for a Palestinian state, how much of it was stolen by Jordan and remains under Jordanian control? Hey, I'm no brown-noser for Israel, but one has to acknowledge the fact that the Arab world launched and lost 5 wars of extermination against Israel, and that this has had some bearing on the negative Israeli response to Arabs as a whole and Palestinians in particular.
Name: Z-u-K
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 11:24:19 -0700
Comment
To... whomever wrote the last message to me: you are right, there is nothing intrinsically literal or metaphorical to the texts (Qu'ran or Bible). It is their READINGS that are either metaphorical or literal. Western people, while still trapped in the conceptual frame of religious thinking, have at least moving on toward a metaphorical or contextualized reading of those troubling passages, so that they can live in MODERN DEMOCRATIC societies (to the extent that human imperfection enables them to exist); Muslims, from the other hand, tend to stick to a literal reading and therefore to a mindset that makes these evolved forms of political coexistence impossible. ------- Now, if its not clear, let me make it clear that I am for the abandonment of EVERY form of dogmatic religious thinking. There still will be (thank God or Gods!) an endless metaphysical thirst in every human, which is one of the most valuable assets of human existence. But for this aspect of human psycology to be effectively expressed, we would need to be in a spiritual state of inquiry, of discovery. Religions satisfy this thirst putatively with suposedly revealed (as opposed to discovered) truths. --------- So, to make clear my point, I don't give the Christian religion any more credit than Islam - but I DO observe impartially how most Christians were able to deal with their own grievous religious inheritance (which, yes, includes extensive Old Testamentary justifications for genocide, among other pearls), and how most Muslims were, and are, NOT, and still, the wealth of some of their societies notwithstanding, they follow the guidance of ignorant zealots and live in the limbo of modernity.
Name: Igor to Z-u-K
Date: Saturday February 09, 2008
Time: 12:24:35 -0700
Comment
You've prompted a question, how did Jesus, a Jew, deal with his own "grievous religious inheritance (which, yes, includes extensive Old Testamentary justifications for genocide, among other pearls)?" Without repudiating or excusing this inheritance, he appears to have transcended it by his teaching, "You have heard it said...but what I say to you is..." thereby replacing the sacred and time honored old with his own new "paradigm." Need I add that this teaching method, indeed his claim to be a teacher possessing more authority to teach than Moses, drove his opponents into a frenzy of murderous rage? They could not would not dare to think outside of their "God box." It's a common human reaction to perceived existential threats.
Name: silvahawk
Date: Monday February 11, 2008
Time: 08:33:54 -0700
Comment
Interesting! And i thought islam is religion of peace .1st criticism well and good. But regarding 2nd one i came across a hadith that says that beating should be done with a toothbrush and very gently. thats the maximum one can do. this might also explain translators adding the word "gently".
Name: awez
Date: Wednesday February 13, 2008
Time: 15:28:45 -0700
Comment
i often debate with muslim women who would complain about how poorly they are treated in their islamic societies , how people spy on their lives and spread nasty rumours about them , and how they lack freedoms and rights in general , but amazingly when i hold islam responsible for their poor condition they are the first who would defend it and tell me it is only that people don't interpret islam the right way , as if there is an alternative islam that respects women ,allows freedom and doesn't incite people to spy on each other , and when i show them the verses and ahadith they would tell me i don't interpret them well , don't read them in arabic , and all sorts of similar silly excuses ....now , the question is WHY ! why despite suffering and clearly seeing that islam is the culprit , these women still hold firmly to it , even more than men , do their best to fool themselves and others and maintain this tower of lies and oppression? ..i need to understand this ..
Name: khan
Date: Thursday February 14, 2008
Time: 11:53:41 -0700
Comment
Oh of course not!!!..women are not beaten in islam.. who gave you people this info? ..if this would be the case why would western women accept islam. earlier the number of women accepting islam in USA each year was 25,000 but after 9/11 the number went up to 37,000..look it up if u dont believe me. why do u think that happened??..after 9/11 more people started to learn about islam and obviously found it much better and safer and more TRUTHFUL than other religions..
Name: THE EVIL ALLAH
Date: Wednesday February 20, 2008
Time: 02:25:49 -0700
Comment
U guys are full of it .. the koran tells muslims to beat their wives...DOWN WITH ISLAM
Name: Hank
Date: Wednesday March 12, 2008
Time: 11:59:50 -0700
Comment
women suck...beat them harder
Name: Grant Gardner
Date: Wednesday March 26, 2008
Time: 08:01:53 -0700
Comment
fuck the allah. women beating is wrong you lot should all be hung then parade around your town with your tiny penises on show
Name: ArabianPrincess
Date: Sunday April 06, 2008
Time: 17:55:58 -0700
Comment
Why cant anybody just kill all the god damn muslims already!
Name: unknow
Date: Saturday April 12, 2008
Time: 02:30:25 -0700
Comment
It is true muslims do beat their wives, if not with their hand, its with there strict ways and controlling habits. I know for a fact that it is true because I am a young american woman and I am married to a muslim man. I have two kids from the past that is not his but he loves them as if they were his but the problem is we have no life. every since we married he is very controlling. out of 5 years he has hit me 4 times. since we have got married every thing changed. I no longer have a car because he thinks i do not need one, I am not allowed to work, he dose not won't me to have anything to do with my family, see them or phone them unless it is my mother. me and my kids stay in the house all the time we never get to go any where unless it is to shop for food at the store. He is very strict. He records my phone calls to make sure that I am not taking to anyone that I am not suppose to be talking to. He tells me when to cook, when to wash, when to sleep, and what to wear. I have to wear long skirts I am not allowed to wear pants. My husband works 15 hours a day, while me and the kids are stuck at home in the house because he demands I must obey him. I am not allowed to have any friends. no matter what I say or do he never trusts me and I am below him no matter what I say it is not important, no matter what I need it is not Important to him but everything he need or wants he gets and everything must be about him. I am a good american women. his food is cooked everyday when he gets home, the house is cleaned very well everyday I am a good house wife and I obey his every command. I am crying as i write this e-mail because I am being abused by strictness and there is nothing I feel that I can do because I no longer have a job to support my kids, I have no family that will take me and my kids in if I leave, I have no car. before this I had a job, I had a car and I supported my kids, he has took everything away from me including myself confidence. I feel useless to my self and kids, I have no outside life, friends, family, support, or help. I am always depressed and crying, never happy always sad. before I was a person that always smiled no matter what I could over come it. I was a happy person and loving no matter what. I'm still loving I will help anyone, give them my last penny and the shirt off my back. I have a good heart and I am a good wife. I do not drink, club or ever done drugs because I came from a good family. he has took everything from me and still demands more, I have nothing more to give and I feel so sad and useless because I can't help myself .I cry day and night asking god why me I am a good person what have I done to be punished like this. all i want to do is take my kids to the, park, out to eat, to the beach, have family, friends or just some one to make me feel like i am needed other than cooking and cleaning. can some one please help me. I am to young for this and the outside world is passing by while me and my kids life is inside the house only. I am drowning in my own tears with no way out and i can't take it anymore I want my kids to have a life while they are young.
Name: To Unknow From Ibn Kammuna
Date: Tuesday May 06, 2008
Time: 20:10:13 -0700
Comment
Dear Lady, Please see the article "Ordeal of an American Woman Married to a Muslim" by Author "American Woman". The comments section will give you some ideas on what to do. But you need to leave that man. Your relationship with him is not healthy for you or your kids. I wish you the best sister.