Islam Under Scrutiny by Ex-Muslims

Islam-watch Racist? How We Turned a Potential Rightwing Fanatic to Humanist?

The commonest of epithet we get from angry Muslims is that 'Islam-watch is racist'. Many good-hearted Western non-Muslims, who are sympathetic to Muslims, also have written to me on few occasions calling us by the same name.

In fact, we are probably racists of the worst kind. Muslims (probably not alone in that camp) see Zionism as the worst kind of racism in the world; this is hardly surprising when the United Nations General Assembly voted to declare Zionism to be a form of racism in 1975 (UN Resolution 3379, later repealed in 1991). Most of the emails we get from bitter Muslims call us stooges, tools, of the Zionists. Some even assert that we are not ex-Muslims at all; we are actually a racist Zionist organization disguised as ex-Muslims. Some, of course, also call us Hindutva, rightwing BNP (British Nationalist Party) fanatics etc. in ex-Muslim guise.

I personally do not see Zionism as racist, but quite the opposite. Zionism was born to end the 2000-plus years of widespread anti-Semitism: racist violence against Jews by giving them a state, thereby shielding them from their persecutors. Although the Zionist Movement had started in the 19th century, the rise of Nazism—the dreaded nemesis of the Jews—in the 1930s, created not only a necessity, but also urgency, for the movement to succeed.

Without going into detail, we can safely say that Zionism was the opposite number of Nazism; today Zionism is recognized as the worst form of Nazism. Zionism was the opposite number of anti-Semitism; today Zionism is equated with anti-Semitism, even by many Jews. Such is the 21st-century world we live.

So, apart from the epithets of Zionist, Hindutva and BNP fanatics, we can add a few more: we are Zionist racists, anti-Semites, Nazis.

I personally consider myself a liberal humanist. But when people from all quarters hurl these kinds of labels at us—exactly opposite to what I consider myself, our organization to be—it often throws me into doubtful episodes. I wonder whether I truly hold or uphold the principles that I claim to do.

A few letters I have received from readers over recent months have removed those doubts from my mind. These letters, I think, affirm what this organization was set out to be, to propagate the ideas of universal humanism, to break the barriers of race, caste, creed, nationalism.

I will include two letters here. One of them is from Joanne (a regular contributor in our forum), who surprised me most. She was on a course to become a BNP fanatic, particularly out of her dislikes of Muslims. But her discovery of Islam-watch.org has changed her whole outlook toward humanity. She is today a humanist, sympathetic to all races, including Muslims. Another story comes from Susan; her discovery of islam-watch.org has changed her bitter perception of Muslims. She feels today that there are worthy people amongst them too.


 

Joanne wrote:

To all at Islam-watch, I would like you to know that, not only do I admire you for your bravery but also for your excellent articles. You might be interested to know that your site has stopped me from becoming a fanatic, a right wing fanatic that is. Through Islam watch, I have learnt that to be a fanatic of any kind is wrong. Keep up the good work and thank you for all your help and wise words.

-------

MA Khan replies:

Dear Joanne,

Thanks for your words of appreciation. Such words always boost our morale to keep this work going against all the odds, threats we have been facing. We feel this initiative is crucial, but may not be enough, for a tolerant, free world to survive. Humanity faces hard times ahead; in five decades, situation could turn dire of the secular, progressive and modernist parts of the world---Europe probably becoming a major victim.

Our reading is that the civilized way of fighting this menace is through media, books, magazines, through objective criticism & debates. But few are there to take it up. Ours is useful effort but with little audience in a world of 8 billion people, it is woefully insufficient as I feel it. We are doing the best we can.

BTW, I was a bit curious of your background. How could our program be helpful in preventing you from going fanatic?

-------

Joanne replies back:

I used to respect all cultures to varying degrees but as the years past and Muslim oppression around the world became worse, I lost that respect. I put everything alien to me into one box and started to hate. I even sent money to the BNP (to my shame), what I came to see after going on your site was that not all ideas different to mine are bad. There are many people from many cultures on your site with whom I have much in common with. In short, I’m not better than anyone else and they are not better than me. Reading this back it seems a bit disjointed but I’m no literary master! Hope it explains something though.



Susan's letter:

I am an agnostic, 45 year old woman who believes in equal rights and freedoms for all. I found this site about 6 months ago and cannot describe to you just how much I admire the authors of the writings of this site. The opinions and attitudes expressed here have changed my mind when it comes to "middle of the road" Muslims. I had never heard a Muslim person criticize Islam or speak out against atrocities committed by Muslims so that I assumed that all Muslims were radical and condoned anti-West and anti-Semitic attacks in the name of Allah!

Thank goodness I came across this site. It has given me courage to hope for a better future for all, including Muslims and Jews. I only hope that more Muslim apostates speak out against Islam and what this represents. This may be a terrifying prospect for some, but there is safety in numbers. I wish you all "the very best" to enable you to continue to create awareness about Islam, to Muslims and infidels alike, and be safe.

Susan.



We personally hold that all humans have the same potential. It’s the circumstances—social, cultural, ideological that groom us—separate us all in our outlook, attitude, achievements. Ideology is a big factor in shaping our vision of life. We have seen Nazism, Communism in our lifetime; these have claimed tens of millions of lives in the age of civilized humanity. Ideology can obviously be devastating to humankind at any time, including in the time ahead of us. Islam is such ideology continuing its havoc on humankind and a very difficult one to dislodge, to discredit. Muslims are only victims of this cultist ideology as were the Nazis and Communists of their respective ideology. More fanatic ones are the worse victims. Muslims are otherwise just like every other people; in their natural constitution, they are the same as all other humans.

We feel that only through unflinching criticism of the Islamic ideology, the Islamic creed, that we can be Muslims' best friends—they like it or not. Pampering them, saying ‘Islam is peace’ and stuffs like that, is unhelpful to them and their future generations, as is to their neighbors. We have enough evidence already to be confident that this thinking of our is right. Many devout Muslims, whose introduction to our Website was bitter, have turned our best friends, our staunch defenders. The stories like those of Joanne and Susan makes our confidence rock solid.

We are creating better humans out of Muslims by helping them out of Muhammad’s dehumanizing, violent and cruel cult. We are, surprisingly, making better humans out of some non-Muslims too, Joanne’s case being one. We are creating friends for Muslims out of their haters, enemies, amongst non-Muslims as well.

Call us racist, Zionist or whatever you may; we will take it as a complement, and quite happily too.


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MA Khan is the editor of islam-watch.org website.


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Comments Notes: Keep comments short. Our system cannot separate paragraphs. Comments must be relevant to the topic of the article. Irrelevant comments, materials, adds of other websites, pasting external articles etc. are not allowed. We may ban such nuisance posters.


Name: amar khan
Date: Saturday January 03, 2009
Time: 12:05:11 -0500

Comment

yeah i am sure that many muslims reading here would be thinking that amar is also jewish agent.....lol... though i never have seen any thing jew like....


Name: Gilda
Date: Sunday January 04, 2009
Time: 04:30:20 -0500

Comment

"We are creating better humans out of Muslims by helping them out of Muhammad’s dehumanizing cult." All you apostates at Islam Watch are able to live without religion (as am I). Do you think it is possible for great numbers of Muslims to do likewise? I love your site. Great work! Thank you.


Name: MA Khan ---->> Gilda
Date: Sunday January 04, 2009
Time: 07:33:27 -0500

Comment

We believe most people are able to live without God. That's the eventual destiny of humankind. It all depends on the indoctrination. Think about the kind of propaganda the religious organizations do. If the Godless of the world set up the same kind of propaganda tools, enjoy have the same kind of freedom to indoctrinate, put in the same kind of investment---billions of dollars annually, wouldn't the world look much different from what it is today??? Muslims are no different. A good number of Muslims, leaving Islam, as becoming atheists.


Name: To MA Khan
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 00:02:00 -0500

Comment

--"If the Godless of the world set up the same kind of propaganda tools, enjoy have the same kind of freedom to indoctrinate, put in the same kind of investment---billions of dollars annually, wouldn't the world look much different from what it is today???"--This is precisely what the communist and atheist USSR had done but they failed miserably and USSR broke apart. Even in communist and officially atheist China religion is alive and spreading. You can never separate religion from civilization from the ancient Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman up to the present time. Belief in Higher Being is part of man's psyche. The problem is, Islam give religion a bad image or repulsive refutation.


Name: Ilham Abdullah (ex-Muslim)
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 00:43:50 -0500

Comment

Thank you for this interesting article Mr. Khan. It makes a person think more broadly about these issues. I agree with you that many muslims are good people simply stuck in an incorrect ideology. When mohammad's islam is studied objectively it becomes clear to the honest person that it is fraudulent. Islam is sure to fade with time because most people essentially good and sensible.


Name: dd
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 05:42:28 -0500

Comment

""If the Godless of the world set up the same kind of propaganda tools, enjoy have the same kind of freedom to indoctrinate, put in the same kind of investment---billions of dollars annually, wouldn't the world look much different from what it is today???"--This is precisely what the communist and atheist USSR had done but they failed miserably and USSR broke apart. Even in communist and officially atheist China religion is alive and spreading." Communism is worse than religion, so it couldn't eradicate religion. But internet the most recent product of science is a million times better than religion and can and probably will eradicate religion. Because unlike communism there is nothing coercive about the internet. Continue with your religious beliefs, your great great grand children will probably be atheist.


Name: zaid ahmed chaudhary from mumai india
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 05:50:53 -0500

Comment

zaid ahmed chaudhary from mumbai india,i found your site through a friend,i am sorry i was muslim,but now i am not.pls keep up your good work.peace to all,and pieces of pigs to all muslims.lol.


Name: 2000 years of anti semitism is enuf to make jews nazis
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 05:53:04 -0500

Comment

i say : 2000 years of anti semitism is enuf to make jews nazis.if u finger someone continously they will react.jews r nazi like due to world especially christians/muslims fingering them.its wrong but the christians/muslims wrong first.same for hindus r peace loving but 2000 years of fingering killing torture etc by christians/muslims is making even hindus take up arms.


Name: To dd
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 06:37:28 -0500

Comment

You will never eradicate this fact, belief in the existence of a Higher Being is part and parcel of the human psyche. Religion has always been part of civilization from the Sumerian, ancient Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, ancient China, the Mayas, Aztecs, and even your country India. Communism tried to do away with religion. Mao Tse Tung called religion the opium of the people but the Communist experiment failed, USSR broke apart, Red China adopted capitalism and religion is alive and spreading in officially atheist China. Only Islam give religion a bad name. You will be soon gone out of this world yet religion will remain as it has been in the past, at present and into the future.


Name: To dd
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 07:06:19 -0500

Comment

Internet will not wipe out religion rather the opposite it will propagate worldwide. Only Islam give religion a bad name.


Name:
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 22:08:34 -0500

Comment

Anyone not Knowing Islam, Calls it Bad. So whats the bad stuff of Islam?


Name: Cato
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 22:56:16 -0500

Comment

First, learn how to read , then take a look at some of the articles in this site.


Name: Asa
Date: Monday January 05, 2009
Time: 23:49:56 -0500

Comment

MA Khan, I am pleasantly surprised when I come across this site. I think rational approach to all religions is the only way to save the world from those who do not believe in the Creator as well as those who wanted to impose their slanted thinking on others. I believe in HIM but is not afflicted to any of the well-known religions being propagated by the rich and well oiled institutions with objectives of enslaving the minds through hatred of others who want to practise different beliefs. It is a relationship between the creatures and his Creator! Third party should only offer his service when requested. Keep the good work of enlightening as many people as possible through this site! many thanks for your effort.


Name: re Cato
Date: Tuesday January 06, 2009
Time: 01:34:30 -0500

Comment

Anyone can put crap in this site. But look at the real world when someone is thrown out of his own home and we in this world are doing nothing about it. Are we creating better humans?


Name: humnaism must be a subject at university level
Date: Tuesday January 06, 2009
Time: 02:44:19 -0500

Comment

humnaism must be a subject at university level.Then only freedom of thought and rationalism will penetrate inot soceity.I fear indian universities are islamised .Many univrsities are starting islamic courses with government money from peples taxes.islmic fanatics, separatists and terrorrist organisations are being maufactured here.


Name: TO Cato - read this and you understando
Date: Tuesday January 06, 2009
Time: 04:40:11 -0500

Comment

To most of us Israel reveals a lack of familiarity with the history of the Zionist state. I say Zionist, since the state is based on racism. Probably if I was a Jew in any part of the world and prove my lineage, I would automatically have been an Israeli citizen with the right to dwell there; whereas the Palestineans, whose ancestors have been living there for millennia, are denied access to their homeland. Most People speak of the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews, which was indeed a truly horrific crime. Yet why does only Israel get reparations for the Nazi crimes? Hitler started off by killing Communists, Socialists, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Even Colored People irrespective for their religion before he turned on the Jews. A greater proportion of Gypsies than Jews were murdered by Hitler’s thugs, but there was never any question of reparations, nor indeed the establishment of a Romani state. Anyway, the Nazi crimes against the Jews do not justify Israeli crimes against Palestinians. And it should also be emphasised that, until the creation of the Zionist state, Jews were not subject to persecution in the Arab countries - indeed leading Sephardi Jews, e.g. Isaac Israeli Ben Solomon and Maimonides, enjoyed privileged positions within Arab society. And we blame all these so called terrorist in the name of Islam#@!&*


Name: Debunker
Date: Tuesday January 06, 2009
Time: 05:54:13 -0500

Comment

Islam is NOT a race. Therefore criticism of Islam cannot be racist. Simple, really.


Name:
Date: Tuesday January 06, 2009
Time: 10:37:01 -0500

Comment

Islam means submitting to the will of God allmighty :)


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Tuesday January 06, 2009
Time: 13:19:58 -0500

Comment

Stalin also killed communists.Do not think to equate the holocaust with palestine(we do have a modicum of sense on this site)!Judae two thousand years ago (and longer)was a jewish land,i see no mention of your hamas brothers,sorry palestinians in any history of of the ancient races,but thats to be expected people like you make your own history my islamic friend.


Name: Dr. DM about your website
Date: Tuesday January 06, 2009
Time: 20:15:47 -0500

Comment

Dear Mr. M A Khan, You are doing a great job for humanity. I gave your website and Faith Freedom International website to some muslim people and many non-muslim people. Very few muslims appreciated the website. Most muslims said that, now-a-days there are many anti-islam websites and its a conspiracy against muslims, etc. They said real islam is good, but unfortunately these muslims could not give any logic in favor of the goodness of islam, when I quoted some verses of Quran which are inhuman. They become angry if I discuss too much about religions (all religions including islam). I get confused should I really talk and discuss religion with muslims. Then, I realized creating confusion in muslim peoples' mind is good. Let them think. There is a war going on in muslims' mind. Yesterday, I met one gentleman working as Financial Service Representative at Suntrust Bank in USA. His grandparents are from Saudi Arabia and Southamerica. He told me about islam's hidden agenda of spreading and conquering the whole world, and to establish islamic Ummah etc. And, this hidden agenda is going on. Its in the minds of strong believers of islam. But, from your site, I have learned a lot about islam. I have learned that there are good human beings who wereonce muslims, who realized and let the whole world know about the darkside of religions including islam. Muslims are victims of islam, and they got stuck in this black hole. Unfortunately, many of them could not understand and realize this. I got to go. Thanks a lot for this website. Kind regards, Dr. DM


Name: Drew
Date: Tuesday January 06, 2009
Time: 22:48:00 -0500

Comment

Yes to most of us, Israel reveals a lack of familiarity with the history of the Zionist state. The world should agree that, Zionist, is based on racism.Thats why the Palestinians are to be terminated. Whereas the Palestinians, whose ancestors have been living there for millennia, are denied access to their homeland. We are not supporters of hamas but are trying to educate the world that Muslims are not terrorist and the Muslims have the right to fight aggression and corruption. Its a shame your site does not highlight the evil emitted in the modern day. While the rest are in a fantasy narrated by Mr. M A Khan and his friends, who are doing a great job for humanity by not highlighting the crimes against the Palestinians to justify Israel’s survival. You fail to highlight the lost race of the Gypsies. Well done keep the world blinded Mr. M A Khan.


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Wednesday January 07, 2009
Time: 07:53:43 -0500

Comment

To Drew,you have no idea of what you speak of!Gypsies are based all over Europe,from the Balkans to Ireland.You are just another fool who condones the islamic terror against non islamic countries.


Name: MA Khan ------ >> Drew...
Date: Wednesday January 07, 2009
Time: 19:38:36 -0500

Comment

We are willing to have a debate on the Israel-Palestine issue. We agree that there are criticisms of Israel, particularly some of its domestic policies, namely discrimination toward some of its citizens including some Jewish sects. Having agreed that Israel has conducted itself pretty well, much better than China, Russia and almost every Islamic country. Come on, let's have a debate to make things straight.


Name: Drew
Date: Wednesday January 07, 2009
Time: 22:49:51 -0500

Comment

Dear G.Ryan, It takes a fool to recognise another. May be Gypsies are based all over Europe, but if they dont ve country of their own, why the hell should the Zionist have one? MA Khan, why dont you first higlight the evil committed by the Zionist and condemn them before having a debate.


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Thursday January 08, 2009
Time: 05:15:21 -0500

Comment

To Drew,the Gypsies are a nomadic people they don't want a country,what they do want is the same rights as other people.You can't compare them to the Palestinians who kill to get what they want.P.S-i should not have called you a fool,ihope you will accept my apology.


Name: Drew
Date: Thursday January 08, 2009
Time: 06:15:26 -0500

Comment

G.Ryan so Gypsies are a nomadic people they don't need country? Then why do the Zionist?


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Thursday January 08, 2009
Time: 07:35:05 -0500

Comment

To Drew,the Jewish people are not nomadic there is no comparison to be drawn between a nomadic people and a threatend settled state like Israel.The Gypsie race do have a very bad press but there is no intention to wipe them off the face of the earth,like there was sixty years ago.This still continues for the jews!


Name: TR
Date: Saturday January 10, 2009
Time: 05:02:20 -0500

Comment

I guess my memory is fading as I creep up on 60. What race are muslims again?


Name: Rashmi Sahu
Date: Sunday January 11, 2009
Time: 00:19:36 -0500

Comment

Why so much hatred against jews. Atleast in India what i have observed is that jews are peaceful and progressive. They never created any problems in India, no prosletysing unlike christians and followers of Islam.Lots of temples were destroyed by Islamic followers and christian missionaries equally(portugese/french) etc. Jews adopted in the culture of India unlike christians and islam who either want to entirely christanise india (by large scale conversions of native tribes by money power etc) and islamise india. Even India is the only country in the world where jews were never persecuted as per United Nations report.Infact There were many Jews / parsiees who used to be followers of Great saint/siddha yogi of Shirdi, Swami Nityananda of Ganeshpuri. One more point of view why always problem with christanity and Islam arises. Both the religions came from the desert of arabia.Though jesus was realised his followers could not understand him and his teachings, in the course of history bible was changed many a times by the church / roman empires, However muhammad was not a realised soul. Both of the religions have inherited the notion that they only give the right path of God.Prior to islam and christanity arabia was following jewish culture.But the jewish society at that time was having lot of inhuman laws like slavery etc.Actually jesus himself was a jew, he took birth and tried to tell them against the atrocities, but jews were arrogant and haughty instead they crucified him.Later people who followed him wrote his teachings and called its followers as christanity. I personally think he was a yogi.Present day large scale conversions and other things are against its teachings. My understanding of Bible comes from the teachings of Hindu Yogi Swami Param hansa yogananda/ Yukteshwar Giri through Autobiography of yogi. Often normal human beings are not able to grasp the lofty and hidden metaphysical concepts spoken by yogis and they derive their own meanings as they are short and allegorical by nature.What is happening on the name of Jesus today is wrong.Further interested people can read about him at www/atmajyoti.org. About islam already writers have written enough.By logic and mind alone you can not know God.God is seen only by the eyes achieved by the hard practice of Astanga yoga and meditation.Their are many who has achieved God and their will be many who will achieve God but they all have followed path of ahindsa, truth, brahmacharya and Yoga.


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Sunday January 11, 2009
Time: 12:52:30 -0500

Comment

to drew, i was wrong to say sorry for calling you a fool, you are one! you are a bigot and a supporter of terrorism. tell me how you sleep at night. i'am no zionist, my family come from EIRE we know what terror is by the state!! one and a half million irish, men women and children dead. don't you fucking dare compare my country to your terrorism without reason


Name: debunker
Date: Sunday January 11, 2009
Time: 14:33:31 -0500

Comment

drew, you're nothing but a wind-bag.


Name: Sauelios
Date: Sunday January 11, 2009
Time: 15:55:56 -0500

Comment

MA Khan, you're quite right in criticizing the cruelty that makes islam's core and in criticizing islam as such. However I can't agree with you that people can live without religion completely. It's impossible to eradicate all religions, because people would need some surrogate of religion, ie. faith. This kind of attitude is very naive, that all people would get on without any religious faith.


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Monday January 12, 2009
Time: 08:10:07 -0500

Comment

to drew, if growing up means supporting terrorism and talking crap, then if you don't mind i will stay in the nursery!


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Monday January 12, 2009
Time: 12:09:35 -0500

Comment

Drew, are you trying to tell every educated person on the planet that the jews have no connection to Judae (palestine as the muslims call it)? Your silliness knows no bounds! You cant even grasp a simple fact that a nomadic people don't want to settle in one place (gypsies). Keep posting, it's comical!!!


Name: Ib-Ra-Hima
Date: Thursday January 15, 2009
Time: 16:37:50 -0500

Comment

The Gypsies were not nomadic people they were made so. Just like the countless displacements of people by other more aggressive groups through out history especially so whenever European and Semitic history is examined. Here is the African account of one such group that seems to be a bone of contention in this comment section: The History of the Gypsies/Bohemians/Romani From the Philosophy Podium by Naba Lamoussa. When Islam was born as a political-religious movement, Christianity was already more than half a millennium old. Africans saw in Islam a movement that was coming to free them from Christian oppression. One should understand that around the year 740 AD, the territories going as far as India and Northern Germany, England etc., were considered as being parts of Africa. (This was understood to be so from the ancient African geographical world view). The Nile Valley suffered particularly from the christian invasion, and the African priests, now forced into exile and amnesty, prayed for the day a freedom movement would come. Everyone was tired of witnessing the systematic looting of the continent's spiritual, material and cultural wealth. Then from the desert, from the other side of the Nile, came news of a politico-religious movement on its way to free them from the oppressors. All the youth rushed to help the Islamic movement. The christian army was defeated and withdrew from the Nile Valley. Africa was liberated! But for how long? The islamist were already dreaming of expansion. After the death of the prophet Mohammed, the new leaders wanted to be known as the conquerors of new territories. Their troops were dispatched into the plains of Mongolia and the Euphrates. The Nile Valley was left on its own. It didn't take long before the christian invaders reconquered The Nile Valley. This time they wanted traumatize the population of the region and secure their total submission once and for all. The African initiatic historical records report the christian malice at this point. The Christian armies told the populations that if they wanted to be treated humanely, their solution was to go and ask for forgiveness from the pope of Rome. THIS IS HOW THE FIRST WAVES OF THOSE WE KNOW AS BOHEMIANS/GYPSIES/ROMANI STARTED. When they reached Rome, the Pope Paul I, around the year 756, ordered them (as punishment for being converted to Islam) to travel for seven years without ever inhabiting a place, and to give all their wealth to the church. Long story short after this pope died they had returned to find pope Stephen IV. He told them he did not order the penance so he could not decide if they had suffered enough. So the group went out for another seven years and returned to find pope Adrian I in 774 or so. He repeated what his predecessor said. After a century of nomadism through Europe, the Bohemians/Gypsies/Romani became people who had learned to adapt to the cold of winter, traveling from city to city, village to village, selling their art and especially their magic and ability to read palms... So no the Gypsies did start out trying to reclaim their home land and have never been granted that original plea, so much so that it appears they themselves have forgotten and even lost the identity with their original home. Some now place their origins in Northern India but as you can see by the African accounts there too was considered African territory hence may have linguistic connections etc. What is the ancient Habiru account of how their people came to be so displaced?


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 09:30:01 -0500

Comment

to the mad muslim,your fairey tale is shall we say interesting.so the huns had nothing to do with mass migration or the goths or your perfect little islam!it was all christians.next time you go to your book shop can you get me a copy of hansel and gretal!african tribesmen knew about England and Germany?they did'nt exist in the 8th century.PROPAGANDA MAN!!!!!


Name: Ib-Ra-Hima
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 12:09:52 -0500

Comment

To: G.Ryan and for anyone else who may have misunderstood my comment, I am not here to participate in a dialectic of us against them or any such dichotemy and if I appear to be stating facts that may challenge statements that others have made, all we have to do is investigate them with clear unemotional logic and in an intellectually honest search for the truth. If that then is our objective here in posting comments and I surmise the general essence of this entire site then let us in good spirit stay with that. To your points Mr.G.Ryan the regions presently known as Germany, England etc where still parts of the land mass of what is now call Europe before it was named such. So to clarify the names Germany, England etc as they relate to a geographical location didn't exist at the given period, however the physical geographic areas that are now called as such did and they were considered then, to the oldest people on the planet, to be the far northern regions of the territory they considered Merita (the name that the geographic area of "Africa" was and is called by the "tribesmen" Just as America was and is know as Maanu by those same "tribesmen".) As to the Huns and Goths, their invasions never came as far south as some of the places the Gypsies are said to originally hail from and don't coinside with any record theirs, European, African or otherwise have preserved. The original Gypsies are described as black or near black do a search on them, you will see. That accounting of the early physical appearance comes from the 12th and 13th centuries long after they began their wanderings according to the "African tribes men" account. One last point, I am not defending any religion especially not Islam, just stating the facts as I have found them regardless of the source. It seems that in our intoxication with our disdain for a particular religion we just take on the ugliness of another in our intent defend our jaded perspectives. Let us not ignore the wisdom and knowledge of all peoples especially the ones who have suffered most at the hands of the tyrannical faith based systems and all of their religiously justified invasions because they don't even have a dog in the fight. So we should not deny or ignore the misdeeds of one group while attempting to expose another, all dispossession is in humane by any group religious or otherwise. Just call it like it is and give other groups with whom we may not be as familiar a chance to tell how they saw history unfold we may be surprised as to what they can share and what pieces to the puzzle they hold, lest we be guilty of the same injustice we claim of these much castigated religions. To quote a saying of the ""African tribes men" if we can kill the devil, who is the devil now?" Peace, Ib-Ra-Hima


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 12:10:39 -0500

Comment

the more i read your islamic fantasy the angrier i become.you are another islamic fool with his own bullshit version of history,do yourself a favour and read some non koranic history books,then come again to talk to us.the muslims(for a change)did not invade mongolia the mongols invaded the middle east and europe.the mamluks held Helugu's horde at bay.fool!


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 12:35:06 -0500

Comment

to ib-ra-hima,totally disagree with you,but yet again i should mind my manners.sorry for the last post.


Name: Ib-Ra-Hima
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 15:53:24 -0500

Comment

It is one thing to disagree on matters of opinion, however when we disagree on matters of fact then there must be some sorting out of how one arrives at the conclusions that are the grounds for such disagreement. Its like saying christopher columbus discovered america having never asked the locals he met when he landed, if they agreed that they had been discovered. Then someone says 'well you know there were millions of black people in america since before the time of the neanderthal' and some detractor, trained into the "modern/conquerors" view of history says 'well I disagree'. Even a Newsweek article Fall/Winter 1991 "When Worlds Collide" gives some credence to what the ancients already know. However it is this kind of faulty logic and a clear obfuscation of the actual events of history that makes true the saying that 'history is told by the victor.' There is always the tendency to self-gratulate while ignoring the view of the facts from all sides for the sake of political and ego driven agendas. So it is with Islam and the rest of the other demonic faith based religions and political powers of the "modern" world. Peace, Ib-Ra-Hima


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 16:02:44 -0500

Comment

to IB-ra-HIma,how can i put this?i respect your heart but not your historical FACT.keep posting,i like a good debate with people who belive what they are saying.all respect to you.


Name: Ib-Ra-Hima
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 16:29:38 -0500

Comment

Also to Mr. G.Ryan the Ottoman empire invaded Europe take a look at the historical map and the time frame according to European history and the chronology of Mongol's invasion with that of the other events related to the Islamic empire and the time lines don't match for what you propose for the different invasions. The Huns didn't even cross the Black Sea or the Caspian Sea, how could they have invaded "the middle east" and that was in 450CE.


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 16:52:36 -0500

Comment

to ib-ra-hima, idid not suggest that the huns invaded in the 8th century,as you say it was the 5th.imade a point about migration of the races.the turks invaded and conquered constinople in the 15th century(mehmet the 2nd i belive).as for the mongols,they invaded china and mid east in the 13th century,they won against the kawazam but lost to the mamluks in later years.respect to you


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 17:05:43 -0500

Comment

ib-ra-hima, without being nasty, you know something about this subject but it is a bit distorted. tell me anything about,tengri, temmugin, subatai, kiriltai, bortai, ilkans, ghurkhans, or the secret history of the mongols. then we can talk again. imean no offence but asiatic history is a love of mine. hard races for hard times.


Name: Ib-Ra-Hima
Date: Friday January 16, 2009
Time: 22:50:43 -0500

Comment

How interesting that we, in our search for truth, can come to this venue and learn from one another as we journey toward higher understanding and to go beyond the artificial and divisive constructs of racism, casts systems, classism and the rest. We can reconcile the past by acknowledging the truths of each people and calling out the lies and liars for who and what they are as is done so prodigiously on this site but also to see upon close and honest introspection where the seeds of deception and disingeniousness may lie within ourselves. In truth as the ancients say 'there is no world to change' meaning it is the self that must change and the world will reflect our transformation. To your points G.Ryan I do recognize and can appreciate your passion for history and your partiality to Asiatic History and I am not hesitant in admitting that I am no expert in their long and illustrious history, however I have been privy and have made it my life's work to studying and imbibing the spiritual and intellectual practices of the original humans of earth whose history is the progenitor of all histories. If you study without bias, Asiatic or any other human history, for that matter, you will inevitably come to them. From the Xi, Li Ming, and The Shang to the Harappans, The Susa, and The Meluhhans, to the numerous Nations of the "new world" etc. all have been accounted for in the "African" Initiatic Historical Records. But we would have to abandon our preconditioned notion of who is the "unimpeachable authority" on history to accept such an unthinkable, from our "modern" perspective, proposition. Either way this is not the forum for such discussions and I apologize to those who have put this site together and those who have come to learn about the ills of Islam for my digression from the topics at hand and the above article in particular. Peace Ib-Ra-Hima


Name: G.Ryan
Date: Sunday January 18, 2009
Time: 12:43:56 -0500

Comment

to ib-ra-hima,i defer to you,it is plain that you are not only educated but a decent human being who know's his subject matter (more spiritual than political but that is no bad thing).i would still like to debate islam with you,even though i may well come un-stuck on points of faith! respect to you and yours, as we say in eire.


Name: Arkady
Date: Monday January 19, 2009
Time: 03:28:51 -0500

Comment

I really like the analogy of Islam to Communism and Nazism. To me Islam functions much like those sick twisted forms of government. What chance do you suppose is there that Islam will also become a function of history like the aforementioned movements?


 
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