Challenge to Close Down Islam-watch: Debate on Quran 9:5, the 'Sword Verse'
03 Dec, 2008
Debate between editor MA Khan and Mr. Ahmed:
Part 1: Challenge to Close Down Islam-watch: Debate on Quran 9:5, the 'Sword Verse'
Part 2: Challenge to Close Down Islam-watch: Muhammad, Not Meccans, Broke Hudaybiyah Treaty
Part 3: Challenge from Ahmed: Islam-watch Remains Live; Ahmed Leaves with Respect
Dear readers, we received the following challenge from a Muslim brother, named Ahmed, to close down our site. We are very keen to close it down if the brother can prove us wrong; we have promised it and we will stand by it. Below is our exchange so far:
From Ahmed,
Subject: I challenge you
I am a Muslim, who is determined in destroying one of your silly concepts that Surah 9:5 advocates Terrorism. I would like to debate you regarding this Surah, as I already did to other Christians (knowing you’re all not), and refuted this claim. I challenge you for it, and if you ever did win me, I promise you, I am ready to leave Islam!!
- This is to show you my determination my friends, and hopefully realize your grave mistakes.
MA Khan’s reply:
To our understanding, this verse was designed for Idolaters/Polytheists, which defines their final status in Islam. It gives them the choice between death and Islam.
Please send your arguments and let the debate begin.
We look forward to be proved wrong and close the site.
From Ahmed
Do you know this verse was brought in a war situation? The context is, the pagans and the Muslims had a peace treaty between them; the treaty was called the Treaty of Hudaiybiyah. But the Pagans have broken the treaty by attacking Muslim’s allies. Then, out of mercy, they were given three options:
1) To break the treaty
2) To break their relationship with Banu Bakr (the Pagans allies who attacked the Muslim allies - Banu Khuza)
3) To pay blood-money for the dead Khuza.
But the pagans, to show their non-interest in peace with Muslims, decided they have to break the treaty, they chose option one. After that, Mohammed (pbuh) and his army declared war with those pagans. Then they were given yet ANOTHER option, which is to either repent of their DEEDS, and become good citizens OR be killed to discontinue their filthy actions. So this was actually justified.
But as you can see, the whole thing was started by the pagans
(looking at the whole context through hadith, the Quran and tafsir).
Do you have an objection to this? If so, why?
MA Khan's response:
This verse has no relations with the breaking of the Hudaibiyah Treaty. This verse was revealed one after Muhammad conquered Mecca in the 8th year of Hijra. The early part of the Sura, verses 1–37, was revealed on the occasion of Hajj in the 9th year of Hijra. Maududi comments on the revelation of Sura that,
The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah A.H. 9 or thereabout. As the importance of the subject of the discourse required its declaration on the occasion of Haj the Holy Prophet despatched Hadrat Ali to follow Hadrat Abu Bakr, who had already left for Makkah as leader of the Pilgrims to the Ka'abah. He instructed Hadrat Ali to deliver the discourse before the representatives of the different clans of Arabia so as to inform them of the new policy towards the mushriks.
Ibn Kathir comments on the revelation of the verse that,
The first part of this honorable Surah was revealed to the Messenger of Allah when he returned from the battle of Tabuk, during the Hajj season, which the Prophet thought about attending. But he remembered that the idolators would still attend that Hajj, as was usual in past years, and that they perform Tawaf around the House while naked. He disliked to associate with them and sent Abu Bakr As-Siddiq, may Allah be pleased with him, to lead Hajj that year and show the people their rituals, commanding him to inform the idolators that they would not be allowed to participate in Hajj after that season. He commanded him to proclaim,
﴿بَرَآءَةٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ﴾
Ibn Kathir adds:
Abu Ma’shar Al-Madani said that Muhammad bin Ka’b Al-Qurazi and several others said, "The Messenger of Allah sent Abu Bakr to lead the Hajj rituals on the ninth year (of Hijrah). He also sent ‘Ali bin Abi Talib with thirty or forty Ayat from Bara'ah (At-Tawbah), and he recited them to the people, giving the idolators four months during which they freely move about in the land. He recited these Ayat on the day of ‘Arafah (ninth of Dhul-Hijjah). The idolators were given twenty more days (till the end) of Dhul-Hijjah, Muharram, Safar, Rabi’ Al-Awwal and ten days from Rabi` Ath-Thani. He proclaimed to them in their camping areas, ‘No Mushrik will be allowed to perform Hajj after this year, nor a naked person to perform Tawaf around the House.''' So Allah said,
Quran 9:5 says,
But when the forbidden months (i.e., 4-month grace-period given in verse 9:2) are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
On the significance of verse 9:5, the verse of the sword, Ibn Kathir writes:
(Caliph) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs (hadiths), it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,
«أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَشْهَدُوا أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللهُ وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُولُ اللهِ وَيُقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُوا الزَّكَاة»
(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''
Therefore, in the words of Islamic scholars whom you advise me to consult, this verse is the verse of the sword. It also defines the final status of Idolaters, Pagans, Animist Atheists etc. in Islam, which is conversion to Islam or the sword of Islam.
I hope you are convinced that you did not do your homework for the challenge you declared. We are still keen to shut down this side. We look forward to your next installment; but please do your homework before you send your next response. Otherwise, it’s waste of our time.
To the question of breaking the Hudaibiyah Treaty, it is Muhammad who broke the treaty, not the Quraysh. I have an article on Hudaibiyah Treaty for your reference: Tactics of Hamas and the Prophet's Treaty of Hudaibiyya.
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MA Khan is the editor of islam-watch.org website.
Name: Ahmed: So when are you leaving Islam
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 10:52:39 -0500
Comment
You have been proved wrong Ahmed. If you are a man then you will be true to your word and leave your Islamic cult. Hope we can welcome you back to humanity soon.
Name: DH
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 11:47:14 -0500
Comment
"Do you know this verse was brought in a war situation?....But as you can see, the whole thing was started by the pagans " The overall "war situation" was instigated by Allah's self-styled rasul with his unprovoked attacks on Mecca's merchant caravans. Muslims justify Muhammad's aggression as justifiable payback for prior pagan "persecution" of Muslims in Mecca (The Muslim practice of blaming their victims goes right back to their cult's very beginning). In fact, whatever hostility Muhammad and his followers met from their disbelieving fellow townsfolk was a result of the former's incessant harassment, threats and insults of the latter - including the unfounded claim that the polytheistic Kabba shrine was in fact built by "ibrahim" for the worship of Allah alone and therefore the rightful exclusive preserve of Muhammad and his deluded followers.
Name: DH
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 11:49:26 -0500
Comment
"I hope you are convinced that you did not do your homework for the challenge you declared. We are still keen to shut down this side. We look forward to your next installment"........Expect this guy to resort to "Koran-only" deception ploy
Name: To
Ahmed - Words of wisodom (I hope) from Ibn Kammuna
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 11:57:00 -0500
Comment
Brother Ahmed, Gtreetings. If it was just one verse (i.e. 9:5), I would have gladly accepted Islam as a good religion. The problem is 60% + of your Qur'an is filthy and violent. Look how Islam treats non-Muslim citizens of the state. Don't you think that all people should be equal under the law? Look at how Islam treats women. Don't you think that humans can do better than that and treat women as independent respected human beings with rights and obligations as anyone else. Wake up man and smell life for a change. Don't let some evil man like Muhammad who was no more than a leader to a band of thieves and robbers trick you into thinking he was a nice man. He was not. I am sure people like hitler said some nice things (treat people nice..etc. just like Muhammad did). But does that make them nice people and decent human beings? In any case, brother Khan has just shattered your claims about Aya 9:5 to pieces. An honest intellectual, which I think you are, should admit his errors and change his views. I did admit my errors many times in my life and changed my views. There is nothing wrong with that. When one is faced with new evidence, one has to reevaluate his views about things. Peace
Name: Impressed
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 13:15:20 -0500
Comment
Mr Khan, Your knowledge and research is impeccable, and your arguments, indisputable!
Name: To Mr
Ahmed:
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 13:57:42 -0500
Comment
Why did not Allah himself mention in the sura 9 that this aya 9.5 is only for the kafirs of Mecca and none else? Why does it need any other books (integrity of which many muslim sects dispute anyways) to understand quran when it itself says it is very easy to understand and it is a complete book?
Name: To
Ahmed from Vijay
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 13:59:36 -0500
Comment
If 9.5 is not applicable now why does quran have such useless ayas which is confusing muslims and making them violent?
Name: To
Ahmed from Ali
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 14:05:08 -0500
Comment
Quran says Mohammed is your role model (33.21). Mohammed killed, robbed and raped, he was the most violent man who ever lived. His followers killed robbed and raped. Islam spread through killing robbing and raping to half the world in 100 years. What is so confusing?.
Name: blagger
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 14:10:48 -0500
Comment
I will be fascinated to see what this fellow says next.
Name: Tony
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 17:49:20 -0500
Comment
Ahmed is just another stooge of the islamic church. has he never heard of 'the king's new clothes'? thats how islam keeps its power over people - it gets them to believe total tosh.
Name:
Ahmed poor chap
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 19:10:25 -0500
Comment
Ahmed, you are humiliated in your very first attempt. You proved that you can fight with sword but not with logic and rationale. Will you come out of I-slum?
Name: Alie Siraj
Date: Tuesday December 02, 2008
Time: 20:52:28 -0500
Comment
Ahmed has already lost the debate even at the beginning and it is to be seen whether he keeps his promise for the resultant-effect of this debate. Still I belief such fanatics cannot be made to see the reason and they can never change.
Name: khanji,yr site gets better and better with each day !! congrats !!!
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 01:48:41 -0500
Comment
khanji,yr site gets better and better with each day,i sent over 20000 mails after the mumbai attack to all,incl kafirs and jihaids,and i am getting really good response as more and more kafirs r learning of true islam-jihad.pls keep up yr good workWORD TO ALL : PLS SEND MAILS TO ALL U KNOW ABT ISLAM-WATCH,FAITHFREEDOM AND MUHAMMADTUBE.COM...PLS SPREAD THE MESSAGE AND SAVE KAFIR LIVES.BCOZ MUSLIMS CARE NITHER FOR THEIR OWN LIFE FOR FOR OURS !!! GOOD WORK,KEEP IT UP.
Name: koran say that it is easy to read and without error,then why no clear word that this sura-09-005 is for mecca only not for others ?
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 01:49:39 -0500
Comment
koran say that it is easy to read and without error,then why no clear word that this sura-09-005 is for mecca only not for others ?
Name: RE: Alie Airaj
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 06:04:39 -0500
Comment
Dear Mr. Siraj, you said that a fanatic can never be brought to senses. Are you not being a fanatic yourself for harbouring such views? Now then if you would have been a Muslim ever in your life you would have been able to understand that even after you see the faults in your faith you are not able to leave your belief system so easily. It takes a very long time to get in terms with your owns elf when you have decided to Apostize from Islam. Not every one is an intellectual, every one thinks according to his own mental ability. While there are many who dont leave ISlam even after realising that it is a big lie, to suit their personal benifits. So Mr. Siraj I would ask you to kindly put yourslef in the shoes of some one else before you make such loud statements. Peace Everybody
Name: seeker
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 08:01:17 -0500
Comment
looking forward to Ahmeds response.
Name: Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 08:35:41 -0500
Comment
It is the invention of the liar Zakir Naik that the Verse (9.5) was revealed in a war situation. One day I was astonished to see the said liar to propagate this dark lie to befool the kafirs, as well as the Muslims of his audience in a youtube Video Clip. What Mr M A Khan has said in his reply is absolutely correct. There is no doubt that Allah revealed this verse, firstly to strike terror in the hearts of infidels of Makka and secondly to make them understsnd that they had two alternatives, i.e. either Islam or death. In his English translation of the Koran, Mr George Sale, with the help of a footnote, has expressed the same conclusion. He has also said that the verse (9.5) was revealed after entry of the infidels into Masjid-e-haram had been prohibitted and word "wherever" in the verse stands for either inside or outside the said sacred territory. The false argumets of Ahmed or of Zakir Naik show that the followers of Allah have started to distort even the revelations of their Allah to hide the bloody sword of Islam. Or to cover a hyena with the hide of an innocent lamb.
Name: qwer
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 10:16:58 -0500
Comment
ONE ... TWO ... THREE ... FOUR ... FIVE ... SIX ... SE7EN ... EIGHT ... NINE ... TEN!!! Gamer over!! Islam was knock ouuuutttt !!! Come on let's joint with us, Ahmed.
Name:
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 11:42:26 -0500
Comment
Name: Ahmed might have got shock of truth
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 11:45:08 -0500
Comment
Ahmed might have got shock of truth.This is what happens at first when a shocking long unknown truth comes to light.Islam is just apack of lie and no human with logic and ratioanlity can believe it.mohammad was mad man suffered from schizophrenia.
Name: Ramsingh
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 12:29:22 -0500
Comment
Ahmed you lost this debate. So when will you leave pIslam???? The Quran is not the word of God but the creation of a demonic warlord. islam is a demonic cult that is hellbent on conquering the world and destroying everything that is non-islamic
Name: Leah B
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 13:46:15 -0500
Comment
Ahmed has got better things to do, so no he hasnt got a shock of truth, and God willing he aint goin to leave islam. ive only been a muslim 4 over a year so i cant answer that straight away but i shall go and research, "mates" if i dont get bk in time im sure another brother or sister will have a response.
Name: QWER to EVERYBODY
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 20:07:55 -0500
Comment
NOT ONLY "Ahmed who might have got shock of truth.This is what happens at first when a shocking long unknown truth comes to light." ............... WATCH!! NO ONE STUPID MOSLEM GIVE THEIR COMMENT IN THIS FORUM. WHERE ARE THEY GO TO DISAPPEAR? OR THEY STILL READ THEIR STUPID BOOK AND FEEL FRUSTRATION?
Name: To:Leah B From:Ibn Kammuna
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 20:26:23 -0500
Comment
Hello sister. One good thing working for you is you have not known true Islam yet. All I am going to tell yoy is the naked truth Leah. You can check all I say on this site or Faith Freedom International web site. Did you know that Muhammad married Ayesha when she was 6 yrs old? Did you know that he made a living attacking other tribes and commercial caravans? Did you know that he beheaded between 600 and 900 adult men of an Arab Jewish tribe called Bani Qurayza in one day? Did you know that he brutaly tortured people for no justifiable reason at all? Did you know that Muhammad and his band of thieves and criminals used to attack simple tribes, kill the men, then rape the women, enslave them, then sell them for money or weapons? God knows I am telling you the truth. Muhammad was not a nice man at all. Islam is the most evil religion there is. Research it Leah. There are many good researchers on those two sites i mentioned. You can read the articles, and check the original sources from the Qur'an, Hadeeth, and Sira. The best thing you can do, and anypone else who is a Muslim, is to leave that evil cult. Don't be fooled by some of the good sayings of Muhammad. i am sure Hitler, and charles manson said many good things in thier lives too. Peace
Name: To M A khan from Ibn kammuna
Date: Wednesday December 03, 2008
Time: 21:59:28 -0500
Comment
This is just a word of thank you for the fine research you do brother, and for establishing this site. People like you, Sina, Spencer, Ibn Warraq, Abul-Kasem, and so many others are, to use Qutb's terminology, Milestones in our paths. We are in it to do what we can too, but mostly, we enjoy the ride with great people like you. I do have a great respect for the many fine researchers on IW and FFI. In our busy lives we, many a time, forget the importance of the valuable research you folks do. Your response above to this Muslim person is a testimony to that. Thank you
Name: kudos to Mr.M.A.Khan.,
Date: Thursday December 04, 2008
Time: 01:38:03 -0500
Comment
Day by day, day after day the whole world is dividing into Muzzies vs non-muzzies. The muzzies do not have any intellectual/moral backgrounds to support the quran and islam. They have only two choices. Either join the jihadis and start suicide bombing or else leave islam silently or openly and support Kufr life. The choice is for them to decide.
Name: jahal to leah
Date: Thursday December 04, 2008
Time: 04:48:22 -0500
Comment
convert 1st then u ask the ques eeh,very stupid.
Name: GAUTAM BUDDHA BETTER OF KILLER-MUHAMED ?
Date: Thursday December 04, 2008
Time: 06:37:02 -0500
Comment
GAUTAM BUDDHA BETTER OF KILLER-MUHAMED ? BUDDHA NEVER TOLD ANYONE THAT HIS GOD OR HE WILL PUT U IN HELL FOR NOT BOWING TO HIM OR HIS GOD [ IF HE HAD ONE ].REALLY SURPRISING THAT MUSLIMS R STIL, STUCK TO OUTDATED THEOLOGICAL INVENTION FALSE RELIGION OF JEWS [ BELIEVERS V/S KAFIRS ] EVEN TODAY.
Name: lw1
Date: Thursday December 04, 2008
Time: 07:28:47 -0500
Comment
Mumbai's top Muslim clerics vowed to block the burial of nine Islamist militants who killed (183)militants in a three day rampage saying the acts were an affront to Islam - Reuters.'Such demons - they will not find an inch of land in any Muslim cemetery.'but saying -'acts are an affront to Islam'that does not sound right, because all their acts are according to Islam.They were all fighting in the name of Allah.Muslim council of Britain announced after the London bombings that 'suicide bombing is haram'.Let us all hope that the waking up by Muslims is not a slow process. The Muslims of Britain have recently complained on behalf of those who came from the sub-continent that Saudi-Arabians discriminate against them because they are not Arabs.
Name: MA Khan ---> Ibn Kammuna
Date: Thursday December 04, 2008
Time: 22:09:43 -0500
Comment
Thanks Ibn Kammuna. We are not here for collecting accolades; our greatest accolade would be our contribution toward taming the deamon we are trying to rein in. Nonetheless, words of appreciation from people undoubtedly boost our morale to keep going. Thanks again.
Name: www.nadeemaslam36@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday December 04, 2008
Time: 23:09:38 -0500
Comment
ok mr ma khan i challenge u to EXPLAIN verse 6 of sorah toba
Name: QWER to www.nadeemaslam36@yahoo.com
Date: Friday December 05, 2008
Time: 04:34:33 -0500
Comment
OK, but first: you should to confess MA KHAN is right that Q 9:5 is the root of terrorism! Stupid moslem!!
Name: DH
Date: Friday December 05, 2008
Time: 05:31:35 -0500
Comment
Referring to the above from "www.nadeemaslam36@yahoo.com" ie "ok mr ma khan i challenge u to EXPLAIN verse 6 of sorah toba"..... The verse referred to is 9:6:... "If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge."....If the issuer of the challenge does not mind I will explain to them. Verse 9:5 says in so many words "slay the pagans wherever found but let them live if they convert to Islam". The "asylum" referred to in 9:6 is therefore asylum from being slain by the Muslims to be granted if pagans faced with being slain express a preference for Islam over death. If after being granted asylum and "hearing the word of Allah" they become Muslim then they are to be escorted to a designated place where they, as new Muslims, will be safe from the bloodthirsty jihadis. If, on the other hand, they decide after all NOT to become Muslim having heard "the word of Allah" they must of course be murdered according to verse 9:5.
Name: no-name
Date: Wednesday December 24, 2008
Time: 14:33:11 -0500
Comment
i wont say except we will live with islam tell the last moments of my life knowing its the truth and will remain the truth you are a very good argumenter but i dnt have a lot of information but if i do i will kick your ...
Name: MA Khan ------>> 'No-name'
Date: Thursday December 25, 2008
Time: 22:47:06 -0500
Comment
I invite you to gain the information you need. I can provide you all the resources you need. Once gained the information, I ask you come back to kick my... You may well be a friend than a kicker of my whatever. If you are game, contact me at our contact email.