Islam Under Scrutiny by Ex-Muslims

Challenge from Ahmed:  Islam-watch Remains Live; Ahmed Leaves with Respect



Debate between editor MA Khan and Mr. Ahmed:

Part 1: Challenge to Close Down Islam-watch: Debate on Quran 9:5, the 'Sword Verse'

Part 2: Challenge to Close Down Islam-watch: Muhammad, Not Meccans, Broke Hudaybiyah Treaty

Part 3: Challenge from Ahmed: Islam-watch Remains Live; Ahmed Leaves with Respect



Greetings Mr. Khan,

I will be with all honesty with you. I admit, I am unable to continue now, and that I have checked all Islamic sources as I can, but I couldn't find refutations to your claim. All people who engage in a debate on this issue do claim 9:5 has a relation with Treaty of Hudaibiyyah, but you have some kind of solid proof against me. So I admit defeat in this. I am not a scholar, so I am not ready to continue in a very hard debate.

Let me tell you something. Although you and many of your supporters have shown little to nothing amount of respect towards me or any Muslim, I do respect you for your research and works. After seeing Ali Sina's site, www.faithfreedom.org, and your site, a seed of doubt have been planted in my heart and ever since, and the more I looked, the more I feel separated from Islam. I tried to search for the truth. I am a Muslim, as for now, and I have been raised Muslim, and truthfully saying, I do not see any other faith which is more logical than Islam. Christianity is the most illogical religion, as well as Hinduism. Judaism is completely baseless - they are still waiting for a Messiah!! And many other faiths have problems too.

But let me ask you a question: If you think Islam is not true, than what is the truth? Which is the path to God? And if you are an atheist, please do not tell me that there is no God, because I find that the claim about this existence and universe came by accident even more illogical than these illogical religions! I firmly believe in the existence of God, and ONE God.

I am in complete state of confusion. My children and my wife are Muslims, and they look upon me as their role model, and I feel ridiculous and very, very bad to be like this. I now know, that Islam may not be the truth that has been told to me, and Mohammed may not be a 'proper' prophet and role model - but I also know that there is no other logical religion other than it.

This has been happening for more than a year now - and I do need someone to help me find the truth. Jesus said seek the truth and the truth will set you free, but his prophesy is not getting fulfiled according to me.

One of the reasons why I started to doubt about Mohammed is when I saw Jesus says ""love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

But I never recalled Mohammed saying things like this! Even if it is Paul who said those words, I am generally against violence - I want to follow a path of love, tolerance, peace, and filled with justice - but worshipping one God.

Anyways, sorry for making this long, and thanks for your debate and patience. I will continue to search for the truth - if Islam is indeed the ultimate truth, I will pray for guidance for me as well as for all you.

Thanks, Ahmed



Dear Ahmed,

I am deeply moved by your honesty. I am also impressed by your level of decency, where, to be true, I have failed myself. A few comments I made could have been more restrained. I will undoubtedly learn and improve in future.

I also urge my readers, the supporters in particular, to be more restrained against attacking the individuals; our attacks, which means unrestrained criticism in decent language, should be targeted at Islam, Muhammad and Allah included.

I am personally an atheist and a liberal humanist. It's hardest to be an atheist, I know. I am atheist just because I did not come across any irrefutable argument in support of the existence of God.

My overall philosophy is that whether there is a god or not, it does not matter but living a good, honest and contributory life does. If there is a God, everything human beings do, or are capable of doing—good or bad—also ultimately spring from God. Our biological constitution—created by none else but God (I say ‘nature’)—is entirely responsible for all our actions. God cannot punish us for doing things, which He has made us capable of doing. In this regard, I like Einstein's words most: "I cannot believe in a God who will sit in judgment of his own creation."

Most of all, even no human father, with all his frailties and short-comings, would not wish to punish his sons or daughters for whatever crime they commit in the way Allah wants to punish humans in hellfire. Not even Hitler would have liked to punish the Jews the way Allah promises to punish sinners—his own creation, created out of his love. If He truly wants so, He is not worth the respect of civilized, compassionate human beings like you and me. I would rather protest this barbarity of Allah and happily join billions of otherwise good, humane and very valuable human beings, who will be in the pit of fire for eternity after death.

As you are on a path to find truth, I will advise you to start with the biography of the Prophet (by Ibn Ishaq or al-Tabari, the latter is more systematic but harder to get), followed by the Quran. This will help you understand Islam. If you are satisfied, stay with it. If not, move on to explore more.

Wish you best in your journey.

MA Khan


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MA Khan is the editor of islam-watch.org website.


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Name: Good news
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 21:24:48 -0500

Comment

It must be commended that websites, like Islam-watch & FFI, have started influencing hard-headed Muslim minds. It's about time that Islam will crumble. Keep the great work up.


Name: continuum
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 21:26:52 -0500

Comment

"I am atheist just because I did not come across any irrefutable argument in support of the existence of God." Arguments alone cannot prove existence or non-existence of anything. Arguments or logical analysis is a tool to understand whether our hypothesis is right or wrong based on certain observations.


Name: continuum
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 21:33:56 -0500

Comment

"I cannot believe in a God who will sit in judgment of his own creation." This entire line of argument is based on the assumption that God created everything out of nothing or religions that believe in creation-ex-nihilo. There are religions that believe in God and yet not in creation-ex-nihilo. In this context, God sitting in judgment is possible without any problem that semitic religions have.


Name: To Ahmed
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 21:41:09 -0500

Comment

It is nice to learn that you are on the verge of living Islam. You are welcome to join Christianity. However, I have once advice for you. After converting to Xnity, don't believe that "people belonging to other religions and not believing in Jesus as their ONLY savior, will end up in eternal HELL". This has been the belief of all sects of Xnity. Also don't despise atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Pharsees, and others as 'HEATHENS', 'fit for hell' etc. Respect indegenous cultures and beliefs. Do not convert them through coersion by saying "if you accept Jesus you will be saved; else you are doomed in hell".


Name: To Continuum--From Rational thinker
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 21:46:29 -0500

Comment

Hi Continuum, how about the belief "God and all souls existing eternally". I can quote something here "never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor any of these Kings, nor will there be a time in future, when we cease to exist" BG 3.12. So time is an illusion. This fulfills God did not create souls; they existed along with him at all times--past, present, and future. I am afraid semitic religions differ here.


Name: To: Ahmed and Khan from: Ibn Kammuna
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 22:05:02 -0500

Comment

Ahmed, thank you for your honesty brother. Please forgive my shortcomings if I said something that may have hurt your inner spirit. I say that with humility since i know my imperfections very well. I hope you will find your own path. it should not be Islam though. When you read about the massacre of Bani Qurayza, you will reach the conclusion that it was ultimately the responsibility of Muhammad. He committed that grave genocide. Every time I think about what he did to hundreds of men on that day, I curse his evil name. It should not be Islam because Islam cleraly allows beating women. Regardless of the reasons, this should never be a moral norm, I mean beating women (even if with a tooth brush as some crazed aplogetics claim). I will stop my train of thought here brother. There are many objections to Islam, its unreal. I wish you the best in finding your own path brother. To: MA Khan, I just need to mention to you that from an epistemic justification perspective, the theist and the atheist are on the same footing. There is no 100% full proof either way. Many years ago I did research a philosopher named Anthony Flew who wrote advocating the presumption of Atheism. Well, guess what, the well-known Christian Philosopher Alvin Plantinga took Flew's arguments and shredded them to pieces. Both used logical arguments and both belong to the analytical philosophical trends that are dominant nowadays in the west. All I am saying is that an atheist is not on a strong footing as one may think. In my view, theism also does not fair any better. Plantinga himself advocates what he calls "properly basic beliefs". For him, belief in God is a properly basic belief. Not everyone may accept that, however such a claim is difficult to refute using logical argumentation. All I am saying is that regardless of what one believes, we do start with some axioms or presuppositions that need no evidence. We start with them. If one claims that belief or non-belief in God is a properly basic belief, then it is hard to show him/her where the errors of his beliefs are. Peace brother


Name: Ilham Abdullah
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 22:12:23 -0500

Comment

Ahmed- Hello, i am an ex-muslim who went through great struggles leaving the religion. Now years later i know my decision was the right one. It is no crime to be an atheist or an agnostic. It should also be noted that there is more to be considered in the field of spirituality than religion. Just a few of the more interesting contemporary figures include Carl Jung, Jane Roberts, and Robert Moss. I am a non-religious person who happens to believe in god and has his own views on spirituality. I follow no one person but remain independent and safe-guard my integrity. Welcome back to your great journey. You have nothing to fear or be worried about.....


Name: To Ahmed From Ibrahim Lone
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 23:00:55 -0500

Comment

Dear Ahmed, all of us Ex-Muslims have been through the phase that you are going through. I know it is difficult to have your beliefs shattered in front of you.As I said before, most Muslims sincerely believe in God who according to them is Allah. They worship him with all sincerity in their heart. It is just that 90% of Quran and most of the Islamic sources are full of lies. Most religious people while cursing Muslims are not able to see the shortcommings of their religions. They believe that while Islam is stupid their own beliefs are time tested. So Ahmed donot strain yourself over this matter, rather try to concentrate on being a better human being and everything else will follow. As far as your family is concerened dont let them know of any of this, not just yet. It will come as a rude shock to them and might also create problems for you. So its best that you abstain from discussing these matters for now. Slowly you can sow the seeds of doubt in your family members too and water those seeds with the water of knowlege, surely one day they ignorance will give way to the truth and wisdom. Always remeber Ahmed there is no greater truth that love and kindness for Humanity irrespective of which faith they follow. Thanks and may you have a wonderfull life ahead.


Name: Rashmi Sahu
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 23:11:00 -0500

Comment

Dear Mr Khan & Mr Ahmed, Dear Mr Khan I had read your debates and mr ahmed. Allah is there (formless God), Yes God is formless and he can be achieved in this pious blessed body by following the codes of non violence, truth and universal human virtues.However Siddha yogis realise God through hard practice of Astanga yoga ( it can be called Kundalini yoga , i.e kundalini is raised through practice of yoga ). Dear Mr Khan with long practice of yoga and study of vedas i am sharing my insight to you :- (1) Do not hate any body even the worst beast, beat them by shastrath or Tark in english called debate which you are doing.Propagate truth which you are doing. Ancient Seers and followers of vedas and yoga did this.They were your ancestors and mine too.Be humble in your debates. (2) Violence can never Give peace of mind.But we should always search for truth and God and both are co related. (3)All the religions have come now, science have claimed the age of earth to be billions years old, so whom people used to worship. As far as my research Goes our ancestors used to worship formless God with veda mantras, yajen and following astanga yoga they used to call this dharma as sanatan.These seers were bestowed with divine powers, yes a practioner of yoga with adherence to its path gets all these powers, however such souls live in forest, caves and in solitude.Scientifically there both right and left brain works and he is not a ordinary man (in case of normal man only left brain works). (4) You see history of India Just 200 years back i will quote the great siddha yogis who were present whose biographies were recorded by britishers, indian, westerners:- (a) Sai baba of shirdi, i could not get who was his guru, but yes he was a yogi whose yoga got Siddha and he had realised God, sai charitra is his biography.(Took Mahasamadhi in 1919) (b) swami Nityananda of Ganesh puri, took mahasamadhi in 1965, was a born siddha (means souls once realised are liberated, but come again to guide mortals like us),You can read his biography by Captain hatangandi and a westernesr "The Divine One". (c) Gajanan Maharaj of Shegaon , took mahasamadhi before Sai baba, probably both of there Gurus were same. (d) Swami sammarth of akkalkot, was there in 1800 - 1860 approx, a great spiritual force to reckon with. A great siddha yogi. (e) Lastly read about Maharishi Ramanna(till 1976) and these books "Auto biography of Yogi" - swami paramhans yogananda,went to west on insistence of his Guru and taught them kriya yoga, and took maha samadhi there "walking with Himalayan master - swami rama " - Professor Paul Brutton, he had conducted lots of scientific experiments on him in a university of america, all are recorded, another yogi which reflects indias true Culture. The recorded videos of Nityanand of ganeshpuri, paramhansa yoganand and ramanna mahrishi are there in youtube. Now on God, God is formless all seers including rama krishna,Guru Nanak ji have said.Quran too says,But Muhhamad jis life doesnot reflect he was a yogi, unlike jesus who must have been a yogi (his divine powers can be taken as a proof).Hindus now worship all yogis and often fall into superstitions.Yes Krishna, rama, ganapati etc are all yogis who in some remote past lived in india, i can not comment when. Still in India great yogis live but you have to search for them and pray to God to direct you to them.But rarely you meet now a days illumined yogi " now spirutality is a business , lot of fraudlent Gurus are there",true yogis are rare like a diamond is rare to find atleast not in mansions and palaces. I have given you this insight , you may search on your own and verify. Buddha, All nav nathas etc all fall in categories of yogis so is rama krishna jesus etc. You may search on this and Guide the people to leave hatred, violence and verses saying hate kafir, one of the reason of suffering of muslims is this too.You may contact this yogi if you wish at www.vedmandir.com, rarely he makes disciple but has immense knoeldege of vedas and yoga and in my opinion is illumined.This knowledge is called adhyatma i.e spirituality and india is the mother of this. I do not know how far you will be able to convince others as human mind is always wavering and often rigid.But i am worried about India since past 1500 years we are suffering and still it continues. We have divided human beings on caste creed, religion for our gains. May God show you the true path.God is discovered in the human body only. After your analysis and research if you feel apprpriate tell people to do yoga it helps internally,externally and spiritually. Do not publish this comment.This was meant for you. May God bless you.


Name: Spiritualism
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 23:49:42 -0500

Comment

Dear Brother Ahmed, The way to god is within yourself.God is in your heart. Please pray to god(Not ALLAH-but a nameless formless infinite which will answer from within) to send you to a proper Master to train you in meditation. Meditation upon divine light is the proper way to infinite source of please and bliss which you shall transmit to others also. You will reach proper Master in totally unexpected way once you start searching god and praying for a Master within.


Name: For Al-Tabari u can Visit this site
Date: Wednesday December 10, 2008
Time: 23:58:52 -0500

Comment

If you want to read Al-Tabari, you can visit www.al-islam.com , it is the official website of the Government of Saudi Arabia. You can will get all the rerences that you need. I belive they have the site in English too, however since you are a Muslim I believe that you must be familiar with Arabic, if not you can use Google translate to translate the stuff to a language of your choice. Take care


Name: seeker
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 00:11:08 -0500

Comment

Dear brother Ahmed.I appreciate the fact that you have conceded defeat in all humility.Leaving Islam can be a very painful process because the fear of hellfire is driven into the individual since childhood.If you leave I can assure you it will be one decision you will never regret.God, soul,afterlife are things which no one knows about.In the end it is what you have done in your life rather than what you have believed in.Personally I admire the works of Bertrand Russel even though i believe in God.Ali Sina has also written a host of articles on these subjects any you may read them too.Also you may read Robin Sharma.I wish you the best on your journey.


Name: To Ahmed
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 00:20:49 -0500

Comment

Put love in your life. Then you will know the true God. For God is love. Those who do not know love does not know God.


Name: Bill
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 01:51:41 -0500

Comment

Mr Ahmed As your realizing finding the truth almost always leads to more questions. This is obviously painful for you but i implore you to continue on this course. As we say in the West "no gain without the pain." you are correct that a lot of religions are illogical, but a Christian perspective of encouraging critical thinking has allowed us to reconcile the illogic in our faith and focus on its main point of love! After reading the Quran/Haddith and spending about a year studying Islam i came to the conclusion that the puritanical view of Islam discourages and basically prohibits critical thinking. In short Islam is perfect and it cant be questioned or criticized. In my humble opinion this is Islams main problem. Its no wonder Muslims of all people of faith have the most difficult time interacting with others when over half of their scriptures focus is the evil of the kafir. Strange that Allah created us but said we should be treated kindly but still the Muslim must hate them in their hearts. Not a good recipe for getting along and especially troubling when the Whabbis and Muslim Brotherhood preach this on a daily basis. I personally have a hard time reconcling most aspects of Islam based on the simple fact Allah not once revealled his love of kafirs but instead hundereds of times discussed his hate and belief we need to conquered. When this is what is taught today its no mystery there is a direct corelation to the 'reawakining of the umah' and violence in the name of islam. We in the West are not faultless(ie iraq) but one thing you will not find in a church is hate being preached. Instead its love, forgiveness, and tolerance. Despite what your faith may say focus on love. You will then find truth and with it tolerance, equality, liberty, and freedom. The big guy upstairs gave you a mind and i encourage to keep using it. In conclusion maybe one of the Sufi schools of thought can provide some answers from a Muslim perspective. I have noted like christianity they have relegated some of the illogic in islam to the dust bin instead focusing on the spiritual good of Islam. In addition them seem to have discarded the nasty political aspirations of the Sunni Islamists that almost always lead to conflict. However the danger is some Sufis are declared apostates by Salafist nut jobs. Wishing you all the best and sincere love from a kafir!


Name: Ahmed we are all gods!!!
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 02:09:40 -0500

Comment

Ahmed we are all gods!!!Yes we are all part of single god or an object of god exists in all human beings just as objects of water exists in different bodies as ponds ,river ,sea on different locations.considering entire water as an single entity the different small water bodies are objects of sigle entity water.This is the same anology of god.Yes you are right .Living with out god is very difficult and hard to believe. Human beings need emotional security which we find in concept almighty .This is our greatest weakness and strengh too.Is there god? then who he is?why does the god created the world?What is the business of god with humans and viceversa? these are the questons that haunt the man since time of evolution.Infact these questions will never be erased from mind of any untill they were satisfactorily answedered or postponed based on prorities.One thing that you should first know in the journy of truth is first not to be mislead by irrational superstitions that suppresss rationality just as many muslims are forced to do.I can suggest the most practical and best way known to the present evolution of truth(absolute) is budhism.(i am not canvasing budhism)buddha is the best and greatest human being that the world history knows just as the Einstein as greatest Geneous.( who had largest impact on the present day world right from elctronic chips to satellites. still there is need of reaserach of 100 years on his theories)Ok first i can say now there is no death and god will not punish you on your works by making the balance sheet.He will not interfere in your actions or in its effects.The entire world is bound by laws of physics.Every action whether it is good or bad is sure to have a reaction but with a time elapse.Law of karma is also works on this.karma effects need not necessarily be to be effected on next life .And the present state of ours is a cumulative effect of our actions(efforts) in this life and from the prevous life karma effects which work as fortunes and intelligence.How ever you should not get confused and misinterpreted about karma.Karma is always a cause but not the end of story and you should not stop your efforts to enhance your physical life by working positively.I suggest you immediately to start the meditation.It is just a mind exercise and makes your mind peaceful and serene.then you can get answers to all your problems both physical and spiritual.


Name: jai
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 02:27:59 -0500

Comment

Dear Ahmed It is not at all necessary to join any sect/religion to attain the truth. God has not emplyed brokers, these are self declared brokers of god. In my opinion every individual has full right to God, without getting stuck to any man made religion. In my opinion no two individuals on entire earth have the exact path/way to God. Only I can suggest u is to be honest to yourself, have deep desire to know the truth and i am sure god himself will show u the path. best wishes !!! Jai


Name: ram
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 02:38:40 -0500

Comment

Dear Ahmed You said that "I want to follow a path of love, tolerance, peace, and filled with justice - but worshipping one God. " It seems that you have found out with proof that there is only one god. I am not advocating multiple Gods. You cannot find the truth with presumptions, to know the truth u need to be absolutely empty so that there is place for the truth.


Name: TO : AHMED...THE TRUTH IS NATURE
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 02:43:00 -0500

Comment

to : ahmed,no god/allah created man from mud/dirt. man is evoled by nature from 1 celled organisms and proof is in our dna and gene.so which god made-evoled man : NATURE.worship nature in all its beauty splendour and be loving good honest human being,as a muslim i was also confused,but found out that nature is the truth who created unievrse and evoled man,nature never gave anyone any religion,just shows is path to love,respect,and be good human.so leave islamlike mr.khanji,and me and all others and believe in truth=nature.that maybe considered to be atheism,but that is not atheism.i believe in the true loving god=nature who teaches us that we r responsible for our karma-deeds,so we must love,respect and care for all.love all,hate none. its that simple.


Name: Is there a God-less religion
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 03:05:12 -0500

Comment

Mr. Ahmed, While looking for an alternative to Islam, you failed to mention one major world religion, i.e. Buddhism. In case you did not know, this is perhaps the only God-less religion. There is no mention of God anywhere in the teachings of Buddha. His focus is only on human suffering and how to end it. You may like to study more about Buddha's teachings.


Name: Concerned
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 03:14:08 -0500

Comment

Dear Ahamed It is a comforting thought that the light of inquisitiveness has been lit in your mind. Nobody has any absolute answers but we can say with certainty that God will have nothing to do with evil even if he exists. Spirituality can be practised without the help of religion. If you are an insecure person the thought of the allknowing allpowerful God is comforting. While sin and piety are religious concepts, good and evil are reality. So follow your conscience and the path of goodness without bothering to follow any religious doctrines.


Name: there r gods and goddesses in buddhism,pls study buddhism carefully
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 03:46:05 -0500

Comment

there r gods and goddesses in buddhism,pls study buddhism carefully.many branches of buddhism exist,which are part of paganism,bcoz even in paganism-hindusim there is 1 branch which claims there is no god : rishi charavak the greatest atheist who expounder the theory that we r all part of natrue and nature is the true god.re buddhism,they do worship various gods and goddesses like vajra bhairav [ kalantak ],tara,and different other gods and goddesses.whether atheist or not,we r all part of nature-prakruti,the truth and true god,who has no 1 form,bcoz all forms r part of it.


Name: jai
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 03:48:03 -0500

Comment

Great!!! automatically, comments on this article have started debating/discuusing/ about God and truth. This is wat I call real religion. Go on searching/thinking/sharing/reading/debating/discussing and I am sure we will find the truth. This what Indian culture(known as hindu religion, but hinduism is not religion it is culture) has been all about, no doubt there are numerous belifs/sects/groups but they share same philosopy mentioned above. Indian culture does not belive in specific rules/regulations/practises it only inspires an individual to accurire the truth by any means/method he/she is comfortable with.


Name: Aham Brahmasmi, to Ahmed.
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 04:17:17 -0500

Comment

The god, the godlessness, the ideas the non-ideas all exists in human consciousness. There is no outer God the god is inside you only if it is there. Try to meditate and you may be able to find your god. You may try buddhist methods like vipasana etc., to meditate. Meditate and you may find.


Name: to : aham brahmasmi....we r part of universe,which is part of nature
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 06:12:33 -0500

Comment

to : aham brahmasmi....we r part of universe,which is part of nature,bcoz nature is truth and nature is the only provable god.


Name: i am happy isw wins....i am not happy ahmed did not leave jihadi ideology despite being defeated
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 06:14:08 -0500

Comment

i am happy isw wins....i am not happy ahmed did not leave jihadi ideology despite being defeated,so,still 1 more potential jihadi exists.but maybe some day he will tell his kids truth and they will join war on jihad-islam voilence.


Name: Logical Thinker
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 07:37:31 -0500

Comment

Ahmed, if you can't understand how the universe would come into existence without a god, the question you must ask yourself is where would a god come from. Understanding the Big Bang theory and Evolution will help you answer many questions but NOT all. We humans do not have all the answers but I believe all religions are created by man to control populations by using and manipulating doubts about the unknown.


Name: Great News
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 07:59:17 -0500

Comment

Ahmed i will advise you to leave Islam. It is most barbaric religion world ever encountered.


Name: DH
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 09:31:09 -0500

Comment

How many other Ahmeds are there out there? - decent-minded human beings who had the identity "Muslim" imposed on them at birth, but are in essence nothing of the sort and inadvertantly create a "pleasant moderate" smokescreen behind which those who wish to bring the entire world under sharia by hook and crook advance their agenda.


Name: To Ahmed
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 09:37:04 -0500

Comment

You don't need to religion in order to believe what you want. All religion is, is nothing more than mind control. Belief and religion do not go hand in hand. You can have belief without religion, but you can't have religion without belief. True believing without religion and you'll find it much easier. Me, personally, I can no longer believe in a male deity because of this "religion", but a female deity. When I meditate (and I use that word instead of prayer), when I say "Goddess", it is towards the universe that I am talking to. I do believe in Karma, and I have very personal reason why. Believe in the one deity if it makes you feel better, but you don't have to follow any religion, for the simple fact that NO religion is the true religion anymore than NO belief is the true belief. "What's right for you may not be right for me, what's right for me may not be right for you." Remembre that.


Name: Blackhawk
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 10:22:46 -0500

Comment

Sir: If you study Christianity and the words of Jesus, you will find your answers and peace will truly be upon you. Islam was created by Satan. Satan saw that the words of God were being spread throughout the world by the Christian faith and he needed to do somthing to try to stop it. So he used Mohammed to give him his teaching of perversion and hate. If you study the life of Mo, you will see that he was anything but holy. Compare his life to that of Jesus and you will see the contrast. Satan threw into the Koran just enough peaceful stuff in an effort to dupe middle easterners and for them to use to dupe the Kafirs. But the jist of the "Holy Koran" is hate and evil. Muslims of the world come out of your coma and accept the Love of Jesus, Only then will you be saved.


Name: QWER to Ahmed & MA Khan
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 12:18:53 -0500

Comment

I ASK APOLOGIZE TO YOU FOR MY PREVIOUS COMMENT ........ "But let me ask you a question: If you think Islam is not true, than what is the truth? Which is the path to God?" .......... as far as I know this site is not for seeking TRUTH or PATH OF GOD. Also this is too far from the first debate's topic "Q 9:5 IS THE ROOT OF EVIL". We are a watchdog for (some) evil moslem when they are following Islam's path or Mohammed's foot print.


Name: QWER to Ahmed
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 12:30:33 -0500

Comment

Yes I'm wrong to call you with indecent name. You are so different with many moslems I ever knew. If you don't mind, please tell to other moslem, how dangerous Islam to humanity. Tell to them to confess that Quran contain too much satanic verses and Mohammed is not a true prophet. He is the man full of hatred, intolerance, sexual abuse, violence. Thank you Mr. Ahmed


Name: Claude
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 13:07:24 -0500

Comment

Muslims must admit that Quran is eternal words of Allah, so, 9:5 contains eternal orders. It is forever. However, how come temporal, historic events like this controversy about a treaty can be a Revelation to humanity. This is not a revelation at all. Historic events are not eternal but inscribed in space and time and they do not nead revelation. In the perspective of the Quran, Muslims can say that historic events can teach eternal lessons, so 9:5 are eternal orders. There would be no controversy on the limited and historical nature of 9:5 if everything else in Quran was an appeal and an exemple of love and forgiveness. Unfortunately the entire Quran conforts the Sword Verses. Those who are peacefull and honest like Ahmed are in a tragic spiritual position. They are in the obligation to realize that their religion teatches violence and hate and that it can’t be a divine and Holy religion nor even a humanist religion. I let you quess which is the last alternative. This may surely insult Muslims but what I say is not against Muslims but against Islam of which they are the unvoluntary victims. . At last, it seems to me ridicule to pretend that the ultimate message of God to Humanity is such historic jumble as we find in Quran, which is even not intelligible in itself without Sunna. and who come uselessly “confirm “ Bible and Gospels. Is it fool enough ? Moreover one must be insane to conceive God as Muhammad–Quran does. This is a huge spiritual regression in comparison to Christianism and no need to believe to see that.


Name: Andrew re to Ahmed
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 18:45:43 -0500

Comment

"After converting to Xnity, don't believe that "people belonging to other religions and not believing in Jesus as their ONLY savior, will end up in eternal HELL". This has been the belief of all sects of Xnity." Not true. Some believe that. Others myself included believe, that Jesus will ultimately judge all humanity. He decides. He can let in whoever he wants. I expect that there will be lots of other people of other faiths in heaven.


Name: Beowulf
Date: Thursday December 11, 2008
Time: 21:24:03 -0500

Comment

Islam is too full of logical inconsistancies to be a true religion.


Name: from Suria, to Ahmed
Date: Friday December 12, 2008
Time: 00:27:51 -0500

Comment

Glad to hear of your discovery on the true face of Islam. You said you need to know the truth, the path to God and that you believe in the existence of ONE God. Why don't you set out to explore with an open mind? You are still cocooned with the concept of "I must have a God to revere. Me and everything else around me must have a creator ... etc." Why must you be chained to this concept? Why not be a good human being - treating others with compassion, kindness ... Why not embrace an ethical way of living. Someone mentioned Buddhism ... yea, why not learn about the teachings. See what it says. Learn the core teachings of Buddhism as propounded by Buddha. He once said, "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." And one has commented that Buddhism has "gods and goddesses". I suggest that the person who said this, pls try to do some research ... especially on eastern philosophies. To cut short, these "gods/goddesses" are symbols. AND NOT equivalent to "people" ... They are symbolic just as a flag/flower/animal to a country. And besides, on one's path for truth, can't one be open minded? And Ahmed, why not read works of others (not Islamic). In your case, why not start off, (if you have not done so) with "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Best of luck in your quest.


Name: to ahmad from amar khan
Date: Friday December 12, 2008
Time: 02:18:27 -0500

Comment

dear ahmad, i am very impressed by your sincerity and decency.i am an ex muslim and atheist somehow but i dont like this word even this believe that there is not God. actully there should be anyone. but reality is more stranger then fiction. so reality is that there is no one up there. we human are sitting on a rock which is moving in very large universe.ali sina is right when he says," dont believe in any prophet , be prophet on yourself."....so you are your own god, your own prophet ,guider of your family and yourself.if for morality you can follow golden rule."do what you want others to do with you". you can follow any good thing that belongs to any religion. and study karma of budhism.


Name: balam to Ahmed
Date: Friday December 12, 2008
Time: 08:36:33 -0500

Comment

I was very moved by the quotation from the Injeel,where Yesu-al-Masih teaches to love even your enemies.Christianity is not a religion as other religions.It is a personal relationship with Christ Jesus,Who becomes your Shepard .He leads you and protects you and guides your ways.Study His life and His teaching.If you find even a single sin in His life,then forget about Jesus.If you find any sin Mohammad did not commit ,then he is worth considering.Mohammad came to this world as Anti-Christ.He brought a Satanic cult of hate for humanity .Islam is the religion for misguided Idiots and Quran is an incoherant outbursts of an ignorant and illiterate man.


Name: Imran
Date: Friday December 12, 2008
Time: 16:54:01 -0500

Comment

i'm sorry but i find it hard to beleive a muslim saying teh prophet muhammed didnt teach love and kindness especially to enemies.. its is well known in teh islamic world that this was teh sunnah of the prophet.as well as what is in the Quran..let us look at Noble Verse 23:96 "Repel evil with that which is best: We are well-acquainted with the things they say." Also look at Noble Verse 41:34 "Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with that is better: Then will he and you between whom was hatred become as if you were friend and intimate!" . Im sorry IslamWhatch your gonna have to raise the level of your "dawkinite" propoganda. before i go ... See also the Noble Verse 28:54 "Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert evil with good, and that they spend (in charity) out of what We have given them." asalaam alaykum wa rahmatullah. Imran :)(not a scholar)


Name: Mateus
Date: Friday December 12, 2008
Time: 23:42:45 -0500

Comment

MA Khan," God cannot punish us for doing things ,which He has made us capable of doing " .Would you,MA Khan be prepared to forsake your capability ?Is not our capability in what makes us human beings ?


Name: sudhakaran
Date: Saturday December 13, 2008
Time: 03:49:17 -0500

Comment

dont be in any religion.You can be religious without a religion.religiousness is a must.But being in a religion is a bad thing.infact religion prevents you from being religious.


Name: to Imran from Bill
Date: Saturday December 13, 2008
Time: 04:53:55 -0500

Comment

Imran, You make some good points. The Quran has many verses that are positive in nature. However if you do an stastistical analysis of the Quran and Haddith you will find hundereds of verses that are negative towards the kafir. You also have to take into account what is the islamic meaning of evil or oppression. For an islamist evil is the kafir letting women dress unmodestly, spreading their faith, intrest, and in general our "decadent"life style that contradicts sharia. Oppression can be a muslim having to live under kafir man made laws, putting up with the kafir having the nerve to critique Islam, and in general having to put up with kafirs practice of their religions. Kafirs dont go to war if their missionary work is halted while Islam has noted if dawa is resisted Muslims under sharia are encouraged to use force as neccessary. I have even heard islamists describe jihad as a kindness because the kafirs know not what they do. Based on these observations its no mystery the word love is mentioned 15 times in your scriptures of which only 3 or 4 are postive. Allah not once said he loved kafirs but instead through out scriptures expressed his hatred and disdain for the kafir. I would think the 60 to 70 million hindus/buhdists killed during the spread of islam in India, 100 million slaves that died as the result of arabic slave trade, 3 million hindus who vanished in east Pakistan, 2 million sudanese killed by the janjaweed, 1.5 million armenians liquidated in 1915 by the ottamans, and 350 thousand pandit indians forced out of kashmir would contest the overall "good" of Islam. The numerous minority populations in islamic paradises that are slowly vanshing in many inslamic states i would imagine would also have an issuse or two as well. Islam through history has a bloody history with every culture it has come in contact with. We in the West are not perfect considering iraq and WW II. However muslims are Welcome and allowed to practice their faith. Our governments even help them fund mosque and islamic schools construction. The West also donates huge amounts of money to the islamic world. The palestinian government is almost entirely funded by the West. In the islamic world charity\zakat is only for muslims and only given to kafirs to promote the spread of Islam. Every year literally hundereds of non muslims houses of worship are closed or torched. Its easy to see in the islamist mind that the peace islamists talk about can only be achieved once dar al Islam encompases the entire globe. Why is it that muslims Today and throughout history of all people have the hardest time integrating and simply getting along with non muslims? For anyone who has read the Quran and Haddith its quite clear that scriptures basically promote segregation and when possible violence to bring them under Islams heal. Until muslims can reform and reconcile their religion with modernity we will all be headed towards a clash of civilizations. It will be a conflict the political islam will lose because the kafirs have the overwhelming military and economic power around the globe. I dont want conflict and do you? If not like many of my muslim friends i encourage to relagate that nasty ideaology of political Islam to the dust bin and just get along. I sincerely wish you the best and i hope you see comments not as a attack by a humble critique of the issues as i see them in relation to islam.


Name: RE: Imran 1
Date: Saturday December 13, 2008
Time: 05:16:24 -0500

Comment

Dear Imran I can understand your feelings right now. I too felt the same way a long time back. However I did not close my eyes to the obvious truth, rather I began to search for the truth. I invite to the same path. let me reply your statements with honest replies. "i'm sorry but i find it hard to beleive a muslim saying teh prophet muhammed didnt teach love and kindness especially to enemies." No Imran this is not true. You have not read the original sources of Islam. You are relying the tales of that our grandmums tell us when we are kids. These stories ramin with us for the rest of our lives, beacuse we believe the people we love cannot lie. Actually they dont lie, they transfer to us what they believe is true. So I dont really blame them as they did not have the sources to find the truth. But with the avent of the internet this claim to ignorance does not hold any Beef.


Name: RE: Imran 2
Date: Saturday December 13, 2008
Time: 05:29:35 -0500

Comment

its is well known in teh islamic world that this was teh sunnah of the prophet.as well as what is in the Quran..let us look at Noble Verse 23:96 "Repel evil with that which is best: We are well-acquainted with the things they say." Imran what we mean by Evil in Islam. Kufr is evil, kouffar are evil. So when we say that repel evil with what is best, what is actually meant is that a Muslim might fight kufr and the Kouffar with all his might and with whatever it takes. IF your read the Tafsir this will be amply clear to you. Another point that I would like to add here is that Shirk is the worst sin according to the Quran. Hence there cannot be a greater evil than worhipping a deity other than Allah. Which makes the non-believers in Islam legitinmate targets for the Muslims. Also look at Noble Verse 41:34 "Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with that is better: Then will he and you between whom was hatred become as if you were friend and intimate!" . Again the same point. Having four wives and unlimited concubines in Islam is not Evil. Killing non muslims is not evil. But to worship a deity other than Allah is evil. So if you subdue an unbelieving infidel, you are doing good. Once that infidel is subdued according to the verse, this guy becomes sympathetic to your cause. Period. Im sorry IslamWhatch your gonna have to raise the level of your "dawkinite" propoganda. Imran this is not propaganda, what you see on Zakir Naik's site is, no pupose could be more noble than this. Perhaps one day you will be thanking Islam Watch. before i go ... See also the Noble Verse 28:54 "Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert evil with good, and that they spend (in charity) out of what We have given them." Do you see everything in Islam is for a reward. There is no spirituality or love of men involved. Muslims give zakat so that they can get a few more Houris, a better palace, a few more pearly eyed boys.... Where would you place such a people on an intellectual level who give zakat to fullfill such materialistic desires. Think about it Imran, think about it.


Name: MA Khan ------->>> Matues?
Date: Saturday December 13, 2008
Time: 21:10:09 -0500

Comment

I could not understand your question. What do you want to mean? Human beings are capable of doing both good and bad, right and wrong. They have done so since the dawn of humanity and continue to do so.


Name: Ravindra Kaul
Date: Monday December 15, 2008
Time: 15:52:55 -0500

Comment

Mr. M A Khan, Have you looked at the Monistic traditions. Physics is an instance of that. Ravindra


Name: DH
Date: Tuesday December 16, 2008
Time: 07:38:53 -0500

Comment

A Muslim (above) quotes Koran: "Repel evil with that which is best"."....SO What is the greatest "evil" in the sight of Allah? It is Kufr. What is "best" in the sight of Allah? It is "killing and being killed" in his cause. So translated from Islam-speak into English the above ayat-extract reads: "Repel kufr by killing kafirs".


Name: Robert Alpy
Date: Wednesday December 17, 2008
Time: 19:43:59 -0500

Comment

"Do unto others,as you would have others do unto you" Live by this and you cannot fail to please the creator.Everything other than this is needless complication that springs from the minds of men who seek always to set the universe in a mold that suits them. The challenge is how to deal or come at those who do not live by "The Golden Rule".


 
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